Goal: $300, Received: $125.00 (42%) Contribute Now
Donate whatever you can or Join the 14,000 other NAWCC members for only $80 (plus $10 for hard copy publications). Check it out here.



Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 338
  1. #16
    Registered user. Ingulphus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    706

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Here's photos of my Kienzle - mine is plate 1423, with serial #22090, dated by John Hubby to early 1907.

    This clock later positively identified being made by W. Würth & Co. It has Plate 1427, now also known to be by Würth, and was made in late 1909 based on the serial number.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Kienzle 003.jpg   Kienzle 002.jpg   Kienzle 001.jpg  
    Last edited by John Hubby; 07-16-2015 at 07:38 PM. Reason: Corrected maker and date
    Si non caste, tamen caute...

  2. #17
    Principal Administrator John Hubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    The Woodlands, TX
    Posts
    10,918

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Les, the movement and pendulum of your clock certainly go together, but I don't think they started life with the base, support columns, and movement support plate. The latter parts have every appearance of belonging to a Kundo.

    Who made the movement, pend., etc . . I have these catalogued as JUF, but with a question mark. Right now I have a total of 36 clocks in the database that have identical plate layouts, the same finial as your clock, and except for four of them have a fancy beaded base. Within the first ten clocks by serial number are seven that have the Wille Temperature Compensating Pendulum No. 7 from the book. That happens to match the DRP 144687 stamped on the back plate, which refers to that pendulum. ALL the rest of the 36 clocks except for three that have an incorrect disc pendulum, have the No. 20 DRGM pendulum with matching serial numbers to the back plate of the movements.

    There are now 16 clocks in the data that have the exact movement and pendulum No. 20, and all but three of these have the same base, columns, and movement support plate. I've attached two photos below to illustrate, one is of a complete clock that shows what the base looks like, and the other is a front view of a movement that shows the fancy support plate and post finials that are present on all but yours.

    The plate numbers from the book on these 36 clocks, in serial number order of first appearance in the data, are 1049, 1049A, 1440, 1009, 1603, 1613. Notice that all of these have exactly the same train and click layout, and all fit within the serial numbers 1041 (lowest) and 27305 (highest). We know that DRP 144687 was granted 29 Sept. 1903, so the earliest clock in this list could not have been made before that date. The DRP disappeared after serial number 7410, but the use of the Wille temperature compensating pendulum had disappeared even earlier.

    Several things bug me about this data:
    1) ALL of the clocks used the same movement click design, which is different from either the JUF or Huber normal design.
    2) ALL of the clocks used the identical finial design both for the headpiece and for the post finials.
    3) Almost all of the clocks use the same fancy base design, which is NOT seen on other JUF or Huber clocks.
    4) The first clocks used the Wille pendulum, and the DRP number continued through about one-third of the total series even though the Wille pendulum had not been used except at the beginning.
    5) The only other pendulum used with this series of back plates is No. 20. We don't know who patented it, unfortunately the DRGM number wasn't stamped on any of the pendulums. However, since it shows up almost at the same time as the Wille No. 7 was introduced, a good guess is that the DRGM was granted in late 1903 or early 1904. That points to a pendulum design patent by Louis Wille granted 26 August 1903, for "a torsion pendulum with design on the pendulum disc . . " Is this No. 20? Don't know yet, but adds fuel to the fire.

    Altogether , the above points indicate that someone connected with Louis Wille made these clocks. Unfortunately there is yet no data to connect him with any particular clockmaker, however it is significant that DRP 144687 shows up on the above set of back plates, all the same design. So far it is found only on one other plate, No. 1053, an unidentified round plate front-wind movement with no serial number.

    As I said, for the time being I have these catalogued under JUF. Definitely NOT Kienzle, and unlikely to be Huber. The answer will come when we find out who made clocks for Wille or collaborated with him to build clocks using his patent(s).

    NOTE: This proved to be prophetic, turns out all the clocks stamped with DRP 144687 Wille temperature compensating pendulum patent were made by W. Würth & Co.

    John Hubby
    >>>>
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2918 Front Top.jpg   4339 Front.jpg  
    Last edited by John Hubby; 07-16-2015 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Added maker confirmation

  3. #18
    Registered User lesbradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fairford, England
    Posts
    1,018

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    I had my suspicions about the base because the finials on the platform seemed out of character with the rest. If anybody out there has an authentic base without a movement I would be only to pleased to negotiate.
    Les Bradley

  4. #19
    Registered User lesbradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fairford, England
    Posts
    1,018

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Well after twelve hours of hard graft the clock is stripped, checked out, cleaned, polished and lubed. I have temporarily mounted it on a later JUF base which currently isn't occupied, a little more authentic than the one it came with.

    The dial would not clean much without serious risk to the markings, so as the laquer was going matt I re-finished with a coat or two of spray lacquer for protection. How were these dials marked? And also is there an easy way to repair them or do you need to go to a specialist?
    I've heard of inkjet decal paper. Has anyone tried photographing a dial, edit out the wear and tear, and print the result to decal?

    I liked the separate pivot mount for the pallets, made the clock very easy to assemble. I've not seen that featyre before. Does it exist on any other 400 day clocks?

    The pendulum has come up stunningly well, but one of the screws for the gallery was already sheared, will need to drill out and replace later.

    Photos attached.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CIMG0373.JPG   CIMG0372.JPG  
    Les Bradley

  5. #20
    Principal Administrator John Hubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    The Woodlands, TX
    Posts
    10,918

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Les, looks great! Regarding the dial, as best I can tell these metal dials were silkscreen printed after silvering, and then lacquered. Trying to clean them with anything other than mildly soapy warm water will "always" result in damage or even complete erasure of the numbers. The only markings other than the numbers are the minute ring and a black circle at the crease just inside the numbers. This dial design of one of several that I've documented with this set of clocks.

    FRONT PLATE PIVOT BRIDGE FOR PALLET ARBOR

    You mention the front plate pivot bridge for the pallet arbor. This feature is another reason I'm not making a firm call on who made these. From the data I have now, this feature first shows up on a Plate 1049 clock, serial number 4080 with a matching No. 20 pendulum. However, there are some lower serial number clocks where I don't have confirmation, these are (hoping the owners will see this and respond):

    S/N 2182, posted by Phil Procter
    S/N 3235, posted by Michael Davies

    Both have a No. 20 pendulum with matching serial number. I need to know if these two clocks have fixed or adjustable pallets, and whether they have the pivot bridge feature on the front plates.

    All of the clocks with higher serial numbers, and with plates 1049, 1438, 1440, 1603 and 1613 have this feature, and all but four of them have matching No. 20 pendulums including the round plate movement Plate 1438 having serial number 6971. This is a "new" discovery, the book shows "maker unknown" but I'll bet a big nickel it was made by the same maker who did all these under discussion. This movement has no resemblance to any known JUF or Kienzle round plate movement.

    This feature doesn't show up on any JUF, Huber, Hauck or GB that I know of. However, it "does" appear on some Kienzle clocks made after serial number 100,000. Since Kienzle only started 400-Day production in 1906, there is little to no possibility that the clocks we are discussing were made by Kienzle. It may be that whoever had this feature patented licensed it to Kienzle around 1908-1909. I've not found any patent reference to it as yet.

    So . . more grist for the mill.

    John Hubby
    >>>>
    [edit=97=1210482337][/edit]

  6. #21

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Good Morning John and Les.

    S/N 3235 has adjustable pallets and the frontplate pivot bridge.

    Michael Davies

  7. #22

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Quote Originally Posted by pastimes
    The plate numbers from the book on these 36 clocks, in serial number order of first appearance in the data, are 1049, 1049A, 1440, 1009, 1603, 1613. Notice that all of these have exactly the same train and click layout, and all fit within the serial numbers 1041 (lowest) and 27305 (highest). We know that DRP 144687 was granted 29 Sept. 1903, so the earliest clock in this list could not have been made before that date. The DRP disappeared after serial number 7410, but the use of the Wille temperature compensating pendulum had disappeared even earlier.

    Hi John,

    A few more clocks to add to your data.

    1. Plate 1049 Pendulum #7 Serial #2149 Fixed pallets
    2. Plate 1440 Pendulum #20 Serial #4273 Adjustable pallets
    3. Plate 1440 Pendulum #20 Serial #9970 Adjustable pallets

  8. #23
    Principal Administrator John Hubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    The Woodlands, TX
    Posts
    10,918

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    KP and Michael, thanks much for the additional data. I already had good documentation on all those except KP's S/N 2149, but was missing the pallet configuration and the pivot bridge info.

    KP, could you post some photos of the S/N 2149 clock?

    John Hubby
    >>>>
    [edit=97=1210575901][/edit]

  9. #24

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Quote Originally Posted by pastimes
    KP and Michael, thanks much for the additional data. I already had good documentation on all those except KP's S/N 2149, but was missing the pallet configuration and the pivot bridge info.

    KP, could you post some photos of the S/N 2149 clock?

    John Hubby
    >>>>
    Hello John,

    Here're a few pictures of S/N 2149.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2149 Front.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	87.0 KB 
ID:	267876 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2149 Back Plate.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	112.6 KB 
ID:	267874 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2149 Pend-Base.jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	106.1 KB 
ID:	267877 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2149 Back View.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	79.4 KB 
ID:	267875

    NOTE: Photos by kepiting1sg uploaded from archive files.
    Last edited by John Hubby; 07-16-2015 at 07:58 PM. Reason: Replaced incorrect links to photos.

  10. #25
    Registered User lesbradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fairford, England
    Posts
    1,018

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    Quote Originally Posted by pastimes
    Les, looks great! Regarding the dial, as best I can tell these metal dials were silkscreen printed after silvering, and then lacquered. Trying to clean them with anything other than mildly soapy warm water will "always" result in damage or even complete erasure of the numbers. The only markings other than the numbers are the minute ring and a black circle at the crease just inside the numbers. This dial design of one of several that I've documented with this set of clocks.

    FRONT PLATE PIVOT BRIDGE FOR PALLET ARBOR

    You mention the front plate pivot bridge for the pallet arbor. This feature is another reason I'm not making a firm call on who made these. From the data I have now, this feature first shows up on a Plate 1049 clock, serial number 4080 with a matching No. 20 pendulum. However, there are some lower serial number clocks where I don't have confirmation, these are (hoping the owners will see this and respond):

    S/N 2182, posted by Phil Procter
    S/N 3235, posted by Michael Davies

    Both have a No. 20 pendulum with matching serial number. I need to know if these two clocks have fixed or adjustable pallets, and whether they have the pivot bridge feature on the front plates.

    All of the clocks with higher serial numbers, and with plates 1049, 1438, 1440, 1603 and 1613 have this feature, and all but four of them have matching No. 20 pendulums including the round plate movement Plate 1438 having serial number 6971. This is a "new" discovery, the book shows "maker unknown" but I'll bet a big nickel it was made by the same maker who did all these under discussion. This movement has no resemblance to any known JUF or Kienzle round plate movement.

    This feature doesn't show up on any JUF, Huber, Hauck or GB that I know of. However, it "does" appear on some Kienzle clocks made after serial number 100,000. Since Kienzle only started 400-Day production in 1906, there is little to no possibility that the clocks we are discussing were made by Kienzle. It may be that whoever had this feature patented licensed it to Kienzle around 1908-1909. I've not found any patent reference to it as yet.

    So . . more grist for the mill.

    John Hubby
    >>>>
    Can you look at this base again? I know it is not the same as the other clocks you have seen with this movement, but I am fairly certain that the finials on the platform are early Kienzle. Could be this is a later clockk of this run without the nice base? Photos attached.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CIMG0378.JPG   CIMG0379.JPG  
    Les Bradley

  11. #26
    Registered User lesbradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fairford, England
    Posts
    1,018

    Default Re: JUF or Kienzle (By: lesbradley)

    It has taken ten months to find one, but finally I have acquired the right base for this clock.:o
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CIMG0987.JPG   CIMG0988.JPG  
    Les Bradley

  12. #27

    Default Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: lesbradley)

    And while we're in the same 1907 Adrebuch, another ad for what it's Wrth.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 237 Adressbuch 1907 A.4-5.jpg  

  13. #28
    Registered user. Ingulphus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    706

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: zepernick)

    Ouch - that's the wurst pun I've seen all day...

  14. #29
    Principal Administrator John Hubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    The Woodlands, TX
    Posts
    10,918

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: zepernick)

    Quote Originally Posted by zepernick View Post
    And while we're in the same 1907 Adrebuch, another ad for what it's Wrth.
    Zep, this ad (I think) may be the equivalent of the Rosetta Stone for possible identification of who made a group of serially numbered clocks previously stuck in the "who made these?" category.

    I have compiled a database listing of more than 60 clocks that have features not found on JUF, Huber, GB, or Hauck clocks, and that can be dated as having been made between late 1903 to 1907 or slightly later. Some of the features are found on Kienzle clocks after about 1908, indicating there may have been a licensing deal (or what happened to Wrth? Were they taken over by Kienzle?). The serial numbers indicate that more than 16,000 were made, initially stamped with DRP 144687 and fitted only with the Wille Temperature Compensating pendulum (Repair Guide No. 7) until about serial number 3000, then transitioning to the pendulum in the ad (Repair Guide No. 20) through the rest of the production series.

    Around serial number 6000 the DRP was dropped and "Made in Germany" found, then all markings dropped after about serial number 9000. Interestingly, clocks with these characteristics were sold to Bowler and Burdick from about serial number 4000 and continuing throughout the rest of the production documented thus far. Some of the B&B clocks have pendulums unique to B&B clocks, a majority have Pendulum No. 20. BTW, I do like the name given to this one, "Kronen-Dreh-Pendel" or Crown Turning Pendulum. Some of our colleagues have put names such as "Medusa" or "Snake" to this one, I'll refer to it henceforth as the "Crown Pendulum".

    I have previously found references stating that Wrth did make 400-Day clocks in this period, however this is the FIRST documented example I know of. Wonderful!! Also for interest, I'm attaching a photo of one of these clocks that has a different dial and support posts, but the base and pendulum are identical. The pendulum serial number matches the clock serial number, and it has back plate No. 1440. One key point to note on this back plate is the click layout . . identical to plate No. 1049 (DRP 144687) and several others, but not at all like JUF, Hauck, Huber, GB, or Kienzle. In fact, completely different layout, one of the several things that point to these clocks NOT being made by any of the names listed.

    Another example of these clocks can be seen in the clock featured by Les Bradley in his thread "JUF or Kienzle". No question that one is included in the same group as I've described here. I commented in that thread about what I had found up to the time Les posted his clock (congrats, Les on finding the correct base!), we now have more evidence that these were made by a "different" maker, and quite possibly it was W. Wrth & Co.

    Boy, what I would give if the ad also showed the back plate!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 9970 Front1.jpg  
    Last edited by John Hubby; 03-20-2009 at 02:30 AM.

  15. #30
    Registered User lesbradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fairford, England
    Posts
    1,018

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: John Hubby)

    Fascinating news.

    I did not realise how different these bases were till I got one, that is the construction of the underside and bun feet. I take it that these bases have only appeared with this series of movements?

    These clocks do surface occasionally in the UK but not very often. I see one at auction or on ebay.co.uk about every two/three months. They usually have the silver dial like mine and the type 20 pendulum.

    I have seen one with a cream Roman dial and short finials on the pillars and a normal gallery disk pendulum. One did appear about 4 months ago with the mercury pendulum with cross tubes. Whether it was original I do not know.
    Les Bradley

Similar Threads

  1. Post your GRIVOLAS 400 Day clocks here
    By any400day in forum 400-Day, Atmos and other Torsion Clocks
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: 05-31-2016, 05:44 AM
  2. Post Your Comtoise (Morbier/Morez) Clocks Here
    By Richard T. in forum Clocks General.
    Replies: 171
    Last Post: 05-13-2015, 12:39 PM
  3. Post Your KOMA 400 Day Clocks Here
    By alovir in forum 400-Day, Atmos and other Torsion Clocks
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 08-29-2014, 10:27 PM
  4. Post your Haller (or Kienzle) clocks here
    By chimeclockfan in forum Clocks General.
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-10-2011, 05:20 PM
  5. Post your American made weight clocks here
    By Mike306p/Ansoniaman in forum Clocks General.
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 03-06-2011, 05:57 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •