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  1. #1

    Default Does anyone know what this is ?

    Can anyone tell whos movement this is, American / Swiss ? whatever.
    Thanks,
    Bill
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails !Bb+H6SQBGk~$(KGrHqMH-CUEqu97t1dIBKyiETmq7Q~~_12[1] [].jpg  

  2. #2
    Registered User rrwatch's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Bill Manders)

    Bill,
    Its almost certainly Swiss. Both the pallet and escape arbors are cap jeweled so it is either a 20 or 21 jewel movement. If the lower center wheel is jeweled its a 21 J, if not, its a 20 J. The case is Canadian so the watch was probably sold new there. A couple of questions that may help solve who made it:

    What is engraved on the movement?
    Is the movement pendant or lever set?
    A close up of the dial might help.
    Look carefully under the balance assembly to see if there is a manufacturers calibre number stamped on the pillar plate. If you are up to removing the dial, the same information may be stamped under it on the plate. A close up of the pillar plate under the dial may also help identify the maker.
    Ed Ueberall
    The Escapement Home Page - Vintage Watch Restoration

  3. #3

    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: rrwatch)

    Ed,
    I have not received it yet, but its in the mail. It is 21J adj 5 positions, and has a Cdn. RR dial,at this time do not know whether it is lever set or stem set, but would imagine lever, (hopefully)
    I only collect and have no guts to disassemble, but the watch does have a really great monty dial on it with the name "Stelcoo"
    When it arrives I will post more pictures of it, and be able to read what it says on the movement.
    My thought was also swiss, likely Gruen or Omega ??
    Thanks for the input.
    Bill

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Bill Manders)

    Hi, Bill,

    Your watch definitely has no Gruen or Omega connection. Comparing the photo with illustrations in a couple Swiss watch references I have, it appears to be a product of the Swiss firm Meyer & Studeli (established 1885), located in Soleure. They sold watches under many names; two of the best-known probably are Medana and Roamer. I don't know if they are still around!

    Assuming the size is 19-lignes (about 16-size) it would likely be Meyer & Studeli (MST) cal. 194, though the exact cal. no. could vary. Your movement appears to be the same as the illustrations in my sources of reference with regard to layout, shape of all plates, bridges and cocks, and even all screw locations, except that your watch has been up-jeweled and appears to have a Breguet-overcoil hairspring. Sorry, but I have no way of scanning or posting illustrations.

    We'll look forward to seeing better photos and more details once you get the watch.

    Larry Treiman
    Last edited by Larry Treiman; 12-12-2009 at 01:55 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Larry Treiman)

    Larry,
    If it is this manufacturer, would it be a reasonably good quality watch.
    I will post better pics when I get it.
    Thanks,
    Bill

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Bill Manders)

    Bill, my log-in expired while I was typing a response to your question (yes, I know there are ways around that but I haven't mastered them and didn't think I needed to). So, starting over from "square one" and going directly to the "bottom line" (good....I think I have exhausted my supply of cliches) I'll just say that I find it interesting and a challenge to identify watches made by lesser-known Swiss makers from the last century, but I don't collect them, which makes it difficult to judge the quality. From what I have seen (mostly on these MBs and in my references, Meyer & Studeli (MST) watches appear to be medium quality, usually 15-jewel watches. With your watch, it would appear that they were making some extra effort to at least make a watch approaching railroad standard quality. Besides the extra jewels and adjustments and the Breguet overcoil rather than flat hairspring, I forgot to mention that your watch once had a micrometer regulator as indicated by the screw holes along the left side of the balance cock. I am not aware of any MST watches being used in North American railroad service, though occasional "surprises" have turned up in Canada.

    Any more comments will have to wait until you get the watch and post additional photos and details.

    Larry
    Last edited by Larry Treiman; 12-12-2009 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Having a "bad typing day"

  7. #7
    Registered User Kevin W.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Larry Treiman)

    This should be in the European fforum?
    One clock at a time. Kevin West
    http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB/

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Kevin W.)

    Hi Bill, I read your comments on another board and want to clarify something. Your watch "had" a micrometer regulator but is missing the micrometer whiplash-shaped spring and adjusting screw which facilitated making fine adjustments. It still has the regulator, which is now just a plain one, not micrometer, which makes it a bit harder to get close adjustments. I hope you get it soon.

    Maybe someone can post an illustration of the Meyer Studeli 194 from a materials catalog that pictures the top (back) of the movements. It is in the Paulson's Master Key Swiss catalog (Chicago, 1950), on page 198, top left. Keep in mind that the one pictured is the plain 15-jewel version, with a flat hairspring and no micrometer regulator spring. I have no way of posting attachments, but at this point I'm just glad to be able to post! In the meanwhile, all the speculation going on over there is fascinating!

    Larry Treiman
    Last edited by Larry Treiman; 12-13-2009 at 08:00 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Larry Treiman)

    It finally arrived, here are some pics of it, any help with the ID will be appreciated. It is a 21j 5 pos watch, but it is pendant set rather than lever set. I can not come up with wnything in regards to the name of Steelco on the dial. The only thing on the mvmt is 21 jewels, 5 positions, swiss made "M" and the A/G + S /L for slow fast ?
    Thanks,
    Bill
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Stelcoo 001 [].jpg   Stelcoo 002 [].jpg   Stelcoo 005 [].jpg  
    Last edited by Bill Manders; 12-18-2009 at 07:11 PM. Reason: addition

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Bill Manders)

    Hi again, Bill,

    Your newer and better pictures just convince me even more strongly that the maker of your watch movement was Meyer & Studeli, S.A., Fabrique d'Horlogerie, also known as Medana & Roamer Watch Factories, of Soleure (German: Solothurn), Switzerland. As I said before, every plate, bridge and/or cock looks exactly like catalog illustrations of their Caliber 194, and every screw is in exactly the same position. The only difference is the up-jeweling and the breguet (overcoil) hairspring.

    The mystery is the name Steelco on the dial. Well, the name Steelco isn't a mystery. It is a trademark used on Swiss watches imported into Mexico by H. Steele y Cia. of Mexico City. They are agents for many well-known brands of watches and also have their own private labels. The two private labels that I am familiar with are Haste and Steelco. They also are (or were) watch inspectors for the Mexican railways. I said "were" because I have no idea what has happened since the railways of Mexico were privatized in the 1990's. They may still be the inspectors. I wrote about them in my railroad watch article for the NAWCC BULLETIN back in October 1972, and Ed and Kent have covered them more recently in their Railroaders' Corner column.

    The problem is that the Canadian case doesn't quite jibe with the Mexican provenance of Steelco. However, H. Steele imported the Swiss pocket watch movements and usually cased them in cases sourced from the U.S., and there is no reason they couldn't (or wouldn't) have used Canadian cases. If the Mexicans could buy Diesel locomotives and railroad passenger cars from Canada, why not watch cases? BTW, Did you buy your watch from a Canadian seller?

    I can't take more time right now. If I missed something or you have any comments or further questions, I'll be back later tonight. BTW, I apparently hit a wrong key on my keyboard, and the next thing I knew, my post had posted! I really don't know what I did wrong!!? Anyway, I had to finish this post in the EDIT mode, which was really discombobulating. I much prefer to be combobulated.

    Larry Treiman
    Last edited by Larry Treiman; 12-18-2009 at 09:00 PM. Reason: That's what I would like to know!!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Larry Treiman)

    Larry,
    As a matter of fact it was purchased from a Canadian dealer.
    Thanks for all the info on this, apprecaite the effort.
    Thanks,
    Bill

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Bill Manders)

    You're welcome, Bill,

    Identifying the maker took very little effort. I thought it was by MST right off, and just had to verify the caliber in my Swiss watch catalogs. That was the easy part.

    What is tough is figuring out what's what with the possible Mexican connection. Originally, you said it was "Stelcoo" which is close enough to Steelco to get me wondering. I noticed that you still put Stelcoo on the latest pictures, but the dial photo removes any doubt. Actually, I only recall seeing Steelco on wristwatches in Mexico. The non-RR pocket watches were labeled Haste, which is pronounced HAH-stay from the first two letters of HArry and the first three letters of STEele. Ordinarily the "H" isn't pronounced in Spanish words, but Harry Steele was an American (from N.Y. if memory serves) who went down to Mexico to make his fortune, and he sure did! They are involved in a lot more than watches. The Haste pocket watches that I saw during the 1970's and 1980's all used Buren movements. For their railroad standard watches they were then using Buren lever-set, 23-jewel movements with 5 adjustments, NOT 5 positions. There's a big difference. BTW, is your watch labeled 5 adjustments (probably temperature, isochronism and three positions) or is it labeled 5 positions? I can't see the marking in the photos. But I have digressed. The Buren movements sold to the Mexican railroaders were labeled Hamilton, since Hamilton by then owned Buren. Prior to that they were marked Elgin! Ed and Kent covered this stuff thoroughly in the NAWCC BULLETIN.

    Anyway, regarding the possible Mexican connection and the Canadian case, we may never know the real story, but everyone can have fun speculating about it. BTW, the movement doesn't look anything like any Buren in any of my references. The M on the movement might stand for Medana, which was one of MST's main trademarks. The other was/is Roamer. I think I read at some time during a Google search that MST changed their corporate name to Roamer Watch Co., probably in the early 1950's, and I got the idea that they are still around under the Roamer name. It is late and I'm too tired to Google it and verify this info about MST; I'll leave it for you to do if you are curious and/or want verification for some reason. G'night all!

    Larry Treiman
    Last edited by Larry Treiman; 12-19-2009 at 03:10 AM. Reason: Because I can't type without making errors!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Does anyone know what this is ? (RE: Larry Treiman)

    Thanks again Larry,
    It does say 5 adjst, not positions, and it is pendant set, removing the possiblity of RR standards, but nice none the less, and I really do like the dial. It also is STEELCO.
    Again thanks for the effort,
    Bill

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