Goal: $300, Received: $305.00 (102%) Contribute Now
Donate whatever you can or Join the 14,000 other NAWCC members for only $80 (plus $10 for hard copy publications). Check it out here.




NOTICE Notice: This is an old thread. The last post was 2835 days ago. If your post is not directly related to this discussion please consider making a new thread.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 31

Thread: References

  1. #16
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    18,622
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default Re: References (By: kirxklox)

    I created an example of the use in [WIKI]Footnotes and Reference Lists[/WIKI]. As Sam says above, it works as advertised, but is a bit obscure.

    The fundamental problem is that hyperlinks require a different view of multiple use footnotes than printed text. In printed text there is no automatic navigation back to the body of the text where the reference occurs. In the Wiki there are such links, but you need to create multiple back links for each reference if it is used more than once.

    I may play around with the styles to make the symbols in references and back links more easy to read. I believe that numbers are used sequentially in the footnote reference and lower case letters are used sequentially for the back links.

    It is also necessary to have some dummy text in the body of the footnote for the second and subsequent references, but I have not checked that out thoroughly. In any case the body content of the second and subsequent footnotes is ignored. You can see this behavior if you edit the example given above.

    I will cover the behavior of footnotes in the article on Navigating the Wiki.

    To express it as clearly as possible here:

    1. Footnote numbering does not work as it does in traditional printed material.
    2. Footnotes in the text are numbered sequentially even if they are the same as a previous reference footnote.
    3. Numbers in the reference list refer to the first instance of the reference in the text.
    4. Lettered back links refer to each instance of the reference in the text.
    5. Both the option and the parameter text of the footnote must be non-blank.
    6. Unless the footnote is reused, the option value is ignored.
    7. When the footnote is reused, the parameter value is ignored.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  2. #17
    Registered user. kirxklox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Dardanell, AR
    Posts
    4,387

    Default Re: References (By: Tom McIntyre)

    Tom: You have missed some attributes of the HTML tag OL.

  3. #18
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    18,622
    Blog Entries
    10

    Question Re: References (By: kirxklox)

    Sam, you lost me on that one. What does OL have to do with the footnote/reference facility?

    The [HTML] tag is not discussed in anything I have written so far. I believe it works exactly the same as in vBulletin and has no special Wiki behavior.

    Are you talking about the list in my post above? I just used the editor button to generate the list. If the OL is not handled properly in the generated HTML, that is a vBulletin issue. Exactly what is the problem? (In another thread please. )
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  4. #19
    Registered user. kirxklox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Dardanell, AR
    Posts
    4,387

    Default Re: References (By: Tom McIntyre)

    No, The RefList is an OL operative. That is how the Programmer is getting this to work.

    There is no problem. There are a lot of options that can be used, though.

  5. #20
    Registered user. kirxklox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Dardanell, AR
    Posts
    4,387

    Default Re: References (By: kirxklox)

    One of the ways you can manipulate this is to say:



    [footnote=10,20,30, etc]note about content[/footnote]



    now someone adds a footnote between 10 and 20 or take your pick the next number becomes 11. In other words you can set the original Number base.

    This is how the Footnote Notation is being manipulated on the fly.

  6. #21
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    18,622
    Blog Entries
    10

    Thumbs up Re: References (By: kirxklox)

    OK. I don't normally look at the rendered code for the articles. The code used to render any given feature can change over time and some of it is controlled by style sheets used by the Wiki.

    The article pages are generated dynamically. So, in principle, the html could change from view to view of any given article. It can also vary by time of day and who is viewing the article or what user group they belong to.

    Many such features show up when we start deploying Templates.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  7. #22
    Registered user. kirxklox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Dardanell, AR
    Posts
    4,387

    Default Re: References (By: Tom McIntyre)

    They have cleaned the code so it only generates 1, 2, 3, etc in sequence.

  8. #23

    Default Re: References (By: kirxklox)

    Did the new system installed last night include an upgrade of the Wiki software? I ask because the footnotes still number incorrectly.
    Richard Watkins
    Books: http://watkinsr.id.au

  9. #24
    Registered user. kirxklox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Dardanell, AR
    Posts
    4,387

    Default Re: References (By: Richard Watkins)

    Richard: That is a major programming problem. We will probably have to live with it.

  10. #25
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    18,622
    Blog Entries
    10

    Question Re: References (By: Richard Watkins)

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Watkins View Post
    Did the new system installed last night include an upgrade of the Wiki software? I ask because the footnotes still number incorrectly.
    Richard, I think the developers believe the current behavior is correct.

    It does differ from printed usage but I have not seen any examples in Wikipedia or elsewhere that handle the multiple reference with two way links issue. It seems to me that if we just document that footnote marks are sequential numbers, several of which might link to the same footnote and footnote back references are sequential letters when there is more than one reference to a given footnote.

    A better usage might be to use something linke 1a, 1b, 1c, 2, 3, 4a, 4b in the text references so that the footnote in the reflist could have the designation 1 with the back references a, b, c as they are now.

    If you feel that is important, or if there is an example of Wikipedia using that syntax, I will request the feature from the developers. If you were expecting some different syntax, please describe it.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  11. #26

    Default Re: References (By: Tom McIntyre)

    Tom and Sam. As I noted in the Dennison article discussion the footnote system is incorrect because it may be impossible to relate a footnote number in the text (1 to 13) to the correct reference (1 to 7).

    Compare the MB article with the identical wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Lufkin_Dennison where the footnotes are correct.
    Richard Watkins
    Books: http://watkinsr.id.au

  12. #27
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    18,622
    Blog Entries
    10

    Thumbs up Re: References (By: Richard Watkins)

    Thanks for the Wiki reference. I had not seen there usage. I will point that out to the people at CES.

    I think so long as you use the links themselves for navigating in Vault Wiki, you cannot get lost. It is only when you actually read the footnote symbols that the problem arises.

    Wikipedia uses a much larger font for the footnote references which makes them much easier to read.

    I will point out the difference in usage to the developer. He is generally trying to track Wikimedia as closely as he can. He has the Wikimedia source, of course, so this should not really be an issue.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  13. #28
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    18,622
    Blog Entries
    10

    Exclamation Re: References (By: Tom McIntyre)

    The CES developer agrees that this is a bug, but may not be able to easily fix it because of the logic of the text parser. Here is his response:
    Quote Originally Posted by C.E.S.
    This is somewhat difficult to achieve because the BB-Code parser doesn't necessarily parse the footnotes in the order they appear. I will try to find a workaround tomorrow.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  14. #29
    Registered user. kirxklox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Dardanell, AR
    Posts
    4,387

    Default Re: References (By: Tom McIntyre)

    WikiPedia is only using a single level OL Tag system which is what Richard expects.

    The VaultWiki system uses two levels of OL Tags. It would be better if they would make a PopUp wind to display the Reference like I suggested.

    I think it is so laughable that there is a mixture of References and personal Opinions in these articles. Even Richard is interjecting NOTES as part of the References.

  15. #30
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    18,622
    Blog Entries
    10

    Talking Re: References (By: kirxklox)

    Sam, I think you must mean "amusing" rather than "laughable."

    It is commonplace in writing to mix both references to external texts and editorial commentary in footnotes. Those are the two major reasons they are used.

    An editorial comment is placed in a footnote to avoid disrupting the flow of thought being expressed in the main stream of information.

    I agree that editorial comments on ones own writing can be amusing. It becomes especially amusing if the author ends up in a heated argument with himself.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

Similar Threads

  1. reference book?
    By Richard S in forum Electric Horology
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-05-2006, 12:31 PM
  2. Junghans clock references,anyone got a suggestion?
    By raymond c matthews in forum Clocks General.
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-26-2005, 11:24 AM
  3. Is there a good reference book out there I should buy?
    By johnny739 in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-10-2004, 01:18 AM
  4. Universal Geneve Tri-Compax reference
    By lunacie in forum Watch Repair
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-27-2003, 09:42 PM
  5. Rolex cross reference numbers for crystals
    By lperzy in forum Wrist Watches
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-13-2003, 08:17 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •