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  1. #16
    Registered user. Jerry Matthews's Avatar
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    Lynn,

    I certainly agree that this is a very fine watch. Based on size and style, it appears to be a lady's watch.

    The case is stunning. I can't be sure of the hallmark (the small symbol on the inside of the case) but it could be Helvetia (a woman's head) which is the old Swiss hallmark for 18 carat gold.

    Jerry
    Jerry

  2. #17

    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.
    I would rather see a closer view of the movement but from what I can see it looks like you have a very fine item.

    The movement is typical of very high grade items from the Locle area, North of Geneva. It is not jeweld on the center wheel but that came much later for small watcvhes like yours. It has at least one extra cap jewel, which is a sign of a very high grade moement. It may have other high grade features which a closer view woudl show

    Watches of this quality in this size are unusual. It may have more high end features which would make it rare.
    I'd just like to add to Dr.Jon's comment that this is a high quality timepiece. Another feature I can see that really speaks to its fine craftsmanship is the wolf-teeth winding gears. It's quite rare to see wolf-teeth winding gears from Swiss watches of this era, and especially this size.

    A question for Dr. Jon, you mentioned that this movement layout is from the Locle area, what are the distinguishing features to make this assessment? Also, in comparison, what are the distinguishing features for these later Swiss bar movements coming from other regions of Switzerland, like Geneve, Chaux-Du-Fonds etc.?

  3. #18
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    I really like this movement.A bit of geography. The Valle de Joux is a large region. The major city is Neuchatel. From there its a short run North East to Le Locle and Le Chaux de Fonds. Further North is the smaller region called the Erguel where Longiines operated.

    The feature I identify with the Le Locle and Le Chaux de Fonds area is the formation of circle of bridges around the balance wheel. You can see it as an the extension clockwise of the base of the balance cock and the cock supporting the lever. The center bridge is also swept around the balance wheel.

    I have seen a lot of watches from Le Locle that have that. Now I have learned a bit more and am less sure this is native to Le Locle. Neuchatel is a major city. Le Chaux de Fonds is a good sized town and le Locle is a village between them.

    Zantke in his book on Louis Benjamin Audemars calls these Audemars movements. This firm made a lot of rough movements, ebauches. They were in Le Brassus which is South of Neuchatel but still North of Geneva. Its closer to Geneva but to get to the rial line that oes there yuo have to cross ten miles of mild mountain. The rail line in Le Brassus meanders but connect to Neuchatel so its probably a lot easier to get there than Geneva.

    Le Brassus is a very small Village but is home to Audemars Piguet and also had C H Meylan and Louis Benjamin Audemars. This watch is definitely not a Geneva style but whether its from North or South of Neuchatel hard to determine with certainty. I still call them Le Locle movements but It am not hard over on it. I like Tony's ID of "neuch‚teleuse" and his attribution to Piguet is as good as any idea as any of mine. I'd like to his response to how he makes his ID now that I have written everything I "know".

    For most of the history of the trade Geneva controlled the sale of finished watches with many coming from various parts of the Valle de Joux. This watch is typical of how things were done then.

    There were a lot of small operations that did everything from making small parts to dials to cases to adjusting. There was a continuum between retailers and major manufacturers. Redard could have contracted the whole item without involving any major manufacturer.

    I'd love to see some closer views of the movement near the balance wheel so I can see the escape wheel and lever. Some makers made some fabulous parts for these. Redard was using the some of the best operators.


    [edit=474=1210943773][/edit]

  4. #19
    Registered User Ethan Lipsig's Avatar
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    To put the Redard movement in perspective, I am posting photos of four similar movements in my collection, all solid gold hunters, three 14k and one 18k.

    The first is a 42mm (outer case diameter) "Henry Cottier." The cuvette states "Patent Lever, Fully Jeweled, Isochronal Spring, Heny Cottier, Locle, No. 24,386."
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  5. #20
    Registered User Ethan Lipsig's Avatar
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    The second is 58mm Salter (which I believe was an Henry Moser brand), with no movement information on the case.
    [edit=3648=1210949727]wrong description[/edit]
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  6. #21
    Registered User Ethan Lipsig's Avatar
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    The third is a 39mm 18k F. Sagne. The cuvette simply states "No. 65,982, F. Sagne, Locle." Note that this watch has wolf teeth winding wheels.
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  7. #22
    Registered User Ethan Lipsig's Avatar
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    The fourth is an unsigned 56mm hunter. The cuvette reads "Remointoir -- Nickel, Balancier Compensee, Spiral Breguet, Ancre Ligne Droit, 17 Rubies, levees Visibles, No 257.597." My French is poor, but I understand this to mean "keyless, nickel movement, with temperature compensated balance wheel, Breguet hairspring, lever escapement, and 17 jewels in chatons."

    I would be interested in comments on any of these.
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  8. #23
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    Sagne is another of my favorites. His stuff was always wonderful. I think the term levees Visibles means visible lever and refers to the pallet stones being visible. The alternative was a lever slit the other way, English style in which the stones are not visible.

    I look for the tips of the teeth of the escape wheel to be higher than the rest of it and to have these polished. These are visible on Ethans's first example and may be on the others but I can't see it in the photos.

    Ethan's are larger watches and really fine but finding these on a smaller watch really knocks off my socks.

  9. #24
    Registered User Ethan Lipsig's Avatar
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    See next message.
    [edit=3648=1210955914]Mistaken Posting[/edit]

  10. #25
    Registered User Ethan Lipsig's Avatar
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    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    Here is another fairly similar movement, but keywound. The watch is completely unsigned, approx. 18 size. open-faced, and silver-cased.
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  11. #26

    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Lynn)

    Additional Close-up pictures
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  12. #27

    Default Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva (By: Dr. Jon)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jon View Post
    I would rather see a closer view of the movement but from what I can see it looks like you have a very fine item.

    The case looks very good and from its decoration its probably fairly heavy. Some are so thin they are called oil can cases.

    The movement is typical of very high grade items from the Locle area, North of Geneva. It is not jeweled on the center wheel but that came much later for small watches like yours. It has at least one extra cap jewel, which is a sign of a very high grade moement. It may have other high grade features which a closer view woudl show

    Watches of this quality in this size are unusual. It may have more high end features which would make it rare.
    Here is an identical movement, unsigned and marked on the case with the name of an American company that imported the watch from Switzerland.
    It is about 10 size.
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan Lipsig View Post
    The second is 58mm Salter (which I believe was an Henry Moser brand), with no movement information on the case.
    [edit=3648=1210949727]wrong description[/edit]
    I would like to ad my watch to this discussion. The case measures 58 mm across and the movement is signed Aug Piguet.
    It is protected by an exhibition back.


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  13. #28

    Default Re: H Redard & Sons - Geneva (By: Lynn)

    Hello. We recently acquired a hunters pocket watch, with the inside back inscription:

    H. Redard & Sons
    Geneva
    14520

    This watch belonged to my wife's great-grandfather, and has been passed down, from generation to generation.

    It has a 18K gold case, with a shield-like mark, inside the front dial cover.

    It has been recently fully-serviced, and runs well, with accuracy within a couple minutes per day

    Can anyone help us identify the approximate year of manufacture? I'll include a few photos, taken with my Droid Incredible, and can post better images, when I can get my hands on a digital camera. Thanks, in advance, for your help!

    Karl Schmitz
    Geneva, Indiana
    USA

  14. #29

    Default Re: H Redard & Sons - Geneva (By: KarlWS)

    Here are 5 photos. -KarlWS

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlWS View Post
    Hello. We recently acquired a hunters pocket watch, with the inside back inscription:

    H. Redard & Sons
    Geneva
    14520

    This watch belonged to my wife's great-grandfather, and has been passed down, from generation to generation.

    It has a 18K gold case, with a shield-like mark, inside the front dial cover.

    It has been recently fully-serviced, and runs well, with accuracy within a couple minutes per day

    Can anyone help us identify the approximate year of manufacture? I'll include a few photos, taken with my Droid Incredible, and can post better images, when I can get my hands on a digital camera. Thanks, in advance, for your help!

    Karl Schmitz
    Geneva, Indiana
    USA
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  15. #30

    Default Re: H Redard & Sons - Geneva (By: KarlWS)

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlWS View Post
    Hello. We recently acquired a hunters pocket watch, with the inside back inscription:

    H. Redard & Sons
    Geneva
    14520

    This watch belonged to my wife's great-grandfather, and has been passed down, from generation to generation.

    It has a 18K gold case, with a shield-like mark, inside the front dial cover.

    It has been recently fully-serviced, and runs well, with accuracy within a couple minutes per day

    Can anyone help us identify the approximate year of manufacture? I'll include a few photos, taken with my Droid Incredible, and can post better images, when I can get my hands on a digital camera. Thanks, in advance, for your help!

    Karl Schmitz
    Geneva, Indiana
    USA
    I've obtained a copy of a recently-completed appraisal from the previous owner, and have gleaned some additional information, below, regarding this hunters pocket watch. Thanks for any help! (I still aim to provided more photos, in the near future.) -KarlWS

    Watch description:
    =================

    Gentleman's pin-set Swiss-made pocket watch, measuring approximately
    44 mm, with pristine porcelain dial, Roman numeral 1-hour indices,
    60-second subsidiary dial marked at 10-minute increments, and a
    (slightly worn) Taille d'epargne enamel tracery hunter-style case,
    in 18K yellow gold (hallmark stamped inside front and back covers);
    fabricated gold @1,305.81 oz. Appears to be an unsigned 15(?)-jewel
    movement.

    S/N: 14520, and 18K (in shield-like emblem) stamped inside hinged
    back cover; 520, and [18]K (in shield-like emblem) stamped inside
    hinged front cover; also, outside of hinged, engraved, and signed
    rear dust cover:

    H. Redard & Sons
    GENEVA
    No. 14520

    14520 stamped inside rear hinged dust cover; plus, apparently
    [not verified; viewed with naked eye], lightly hand-etched
    above the serial number stamping (upside-down): 73922H6; and
    below (upside-down): 72L44HL; plus @8 o'clock (upside-down): 3214.
    [What could the significance of these numbers be?]

    Appears to have been manufactured between 1844-1893.
    [Could someone help us narrow the range?]

    The mechanism had a complete mechanical restoration service
    in May 2010, with hand-made parts, by Universal Watch Repair*,
    through Eichorn Jewelry, Inc. Now runs well and keeps acceptable
    time; accurate within 2-3 minutes, per day.

    Appraisal completed by:

    Eileen R. Eichorn GG
    Graduate Gemologist/Appraiser
    firstingems@netscape.net
    Eichorn Jewelery, Inc.
    130 N. Second Street
    Decatur, IN 46733
    Phone: 800.589.2621, 260.724.2621
    Fax: 260.724.9483
    www.eichornjewelry.com

    *Universal Watch Repair
    177 S. Old Woodward Avenue
    Birmigham, MI 48009
    Phone: 248.723.5550
    Fax: 248.723.5401
    www.universalwatch.net
    info@universalwatch.net

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