Goal: $300, Received: $20.00 (7%) Contribute Now
Donate whatever you can or Join the 14,000 other NAWCC members for only $80 (plus $10 for hard copy publications). Check it out here.



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25
  1. #1
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    Is anyone tracking these conversions since we know the piece of paper that was used to create the original grade 277 list on the Elgin.org site is incomplete and has in the past had watches not on that piece of paper added as 277's. I have at least 4 grade 277s if anyone is tracking them, if not no need to post them up.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    I'm not really tracking, but I've seen some odd things going on with the grade 150:

    7435466 is PS, marked ENWCo and Adjusted
    7435659 is LS, marked No. 150 ENWCo, Adjusted 5 Positions, and is frosted
    7435841 is PS, marked ENWCo and Adjusted
    7875718 is PS, marked ENWCo and Adjusted

    Dave
    Member Chapter 149

  3. #3
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    7435598 Is a true grade 150 Pendant set
    7875680 Is a true grade 150 Pendant set
    6362414 Is a true grade 150 Pendant set
    7435162 Grade 150 Pendant set
    7875121 Is a grade 277 converted from a grade 150
    7875650 Is a grade 277 converted from a grade 150
    7435327 Is a grade 277 converted from a grade 150
    7435896 Is a grade 277 converted from a grade 150
    6349077 Is a 20 jewel grade 150 pendant set
    6434432 Started its life as a lever set and it does not have any pendant set machining, unique from a pendant set 150 and unique from a converted grade 277 all numbers on plates match so it is not a frankenwatch.


    So far besides the 179 listed on the picking order sheet 55 150 serial numbers converted to 277 lever set have been identified and 6434432 being the odd ball lever set that was never a pendant set.
    Last edited by 49stude63; 09-09-2017 at 10:45 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions (By: 49stude63)

    It appears then that grade 150's were made in both PS and LS, or said another way, because its' lever set doesn't necessarily mean it's been converted to a grade 277 - unless the marking "No. 150" applies to grade 277 LS movements?! :O
    Member Chapter 149

  5. #5
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    No the 150 was never designed to be a lever set, remove the dial on your lever set and you will see the old pendant set machining left behind, no different than the grade 148 pendant set conversion to the grade 283. There is a good topic on this many years ago that you can pull up. Pull any lever set watch you want that falls within the grade 150 serial number for the grade 150 runs or take any serial number from the pick list which basically tells them to grab these serial numbers for grade 150 stock and convert them and they will look like the second picture with the 327 ending serial number. Elgin messed up and picked the wrong setting and had to convert some 150 to lever sets which they did on other lower jewel pendant sets. The first picture is the 432 grade 150 and I can't explain it any better than I can explain a late grade 478 marked Adjusted to 6 positions or a grade 370 that is a pendant set. The lowest you will see a converted 150 to 277 is late in the 2nd run, it was probably still in stock when they grabbed some to be converted. If you have a grade 150 that has "150" marked on it simply take it out of its case look at for the slot near the 1 min position that is clearly seen in picture 2 which is the remnant of the pendant set machining. Your only argument then would be is that slot exists is that Elgin intended the grade 150 to be a convertible movement, if so then why don't all these pendant set Elgins have lever set machining also. As you can see I have a few pendant set 150 and not one has a lever slot machined in the correct position, next question do any of your pendant set have a lever slot machined into the pillar plate?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF0003.jpg 
Views:	87 
Size:	271.7 KB 
ID:	356147   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1585.jpg 
Views:	85 
Size:	269.8 KB 
ID:	356146  
    Last edited by 49stude63; 09-10-2017 at 12:18 PM.

  6. #6
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    http://elginwatches.org/scans/tech_d...277_notes.html


    Is the document that all use to classify a grade 277, the first sentence says it all "Changed from #150 Pendant to Lever set" So all official 277's from the serial numbers on that list were changed from a grade 150 pendant set to a lever set, you will also notice these serial numbers are all from the 7875 run or later. So the pick lists for the earlier conversions were probably lost over the years or not properly documented. Also if the grade 150 was intended by Elgin to be both a pendant set and a lever set, I would love to see a lever set grade 150 from the 1st run either a 20 or 21 jewel version.
    Last edited by 49stude63; 09-10-2017 at 12:57 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions (By: 49stude63)

    It sure is nice to have factory notes! But is that proof? As far as I'm able to follow so far, it appears that 180 of the 184 grade 277's listed were made from existing grade 150 stock. Does that further prove that there were no grade 150 LS made? I'm not so certain! The decision to make LS grade 150's could have occurred at any time between the 1st run, and when the decision to go to a new grade, the grade 277, was made, no? And I'd say that my LS example, marked "No. 150", is fairly convincing argument for that!
    Member Chapter 149

  8. #8
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    If you ever bother to look at the 277s and the 283s they did not change the plates markings the simply took them apart and machined it so the lever sets parts could be installed. In your case you didn't even reply if your watch shows proof of of being a pendant set, with your logic why would there be a grade 277 if the process was the same, why cut the 150 production short and roll out the 181 which by the way was not a pendant set lever set. So you pass off factory records and product release ads that call the 150 a pendant set and never claim it was a lever set because you have a watch that was somewhere in the final stages of production and had been marked 150 as proof that was Elgins intentions? Did you look at the 277 change request? Most of the those watches were either in the packing department or the timing department so they would have been in the final stages of production when they were pulled. Look through the raw Elgin serial numbers, while they are not without error take the time to gander what Elgin allocated for the 150, also in the yellow Elgin book which has the raw serial number try to find the grade 277 or grade 283 with serial numbers listed, they are not there. You will find the 166 and 266 with serial number allocations since they did change the plates.

  9. #9
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    847

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions (By: 49stude63)

    In your case you didn't even reply if your watch shows proof of of being a pendant set, with your logic why would there be a grade 277
    You are obviously very passionate about understanding the anomalies concerning the conversion
    of the pendent set to lever set on the grade 150's.
    It's not worth fighting here about it, or taking an angry tone. If you post all the
    information, photographs, and links to that information, I would assume it would speak for itself.
    Or, at the very least start a conversation about it. We are all here to learn more
    about the watches we collect.



    Rob

  10. #10
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions (By: 49stude63)

    I am a bit surprised you say that making a statement like that is angry, are there any words that terse? Since he made a statement rather broad then you would expect his watch to be a non conversion such as the one I posted. Elgin had an order department taking orders to anticipate production needs. If the grade 150 was supposed to be either pendant set or lever set depending on orders then why would you go so far as to fully machine the watch as a pendant set have it in the shipping or packing department then run and grab some and machine them to be lever sets. That would be horrible disorganized and costly. If the 150 was as suggested supposed to be dual setting, there would be 100's or 1000's of watches like the 432 picture that I posted and there are just 1 that I know of, all the rest are converted.

    If his 150 lever set is a conversion or not he has not responded but I did not toss in evil emoticons or fuming emoticons, if asking him if it is a conversion or not or making that statement that it had not responded to that question is deemed angry. All I can say is WOW.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    Well - I didn't say I have proof of anything, just a good argument. And I don't take down watches much, but if I do I'll respond to those questions. My gr 150 LS example is a relatively early number, and seems to have been reworked beyond just the LS function, i.e., new grade marking, new adjustment marking, new finish. So to me it appears the 150 LS transition occurred in at least two phases:
    a) offer a LS version of the 150 with new markings, then
    b) go to a new grade 277 designation so the change was more manageable for support of the product.

    And then maybe a third phase which was
    c) realize that we've made a mess of things and stop both 150 and 277 production to go to new grade designations!

    I'm not saying we know more or less than we've known to date. I just don't see that we know enough to prove much.
    Last edited by Dave Chaplain; 09-11-2017 at 09:47 AM.
    Member Chapter 149

  12. #12
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions (By: 49stude63)

    Or that simply your watch went back to the factory and was reworked, if your theory is true and since my 7435xxx watches are not on the 277 you would expect them to have the same reworking as yours. I will take mine out and take pictures and show you that the dmk and markings are the same as my pendant set 150's which I am lucky because I have a pendant set right in the middle of the two lever sets. If your logic is correct the lever sets will have different dmk and look than the pendant set, knowing my watches I can say unless you look at the serial numbers and have the front cover off so you can see the lever there is no difference but I will post pictures. It also doesn't make a lot of sense to fully machine watches once way they go back and machine them another way. If pointing out points that don't seem to make good business sense from a cost and labor point of view or saying you haven't replied if it was a conversion and shows previous pendant set machining would certainly be important to the discussion, not an indication that I was angry or going into anger factor warp 9. Elgin did not start doing the odd markings such as "5 Positions" tend to show up around the 12M range, you can see this on the grade 341 on the 2nd run and on some 370s on the mid runs along with the full plate 349 and a few others. So without know the complete history of your watch it may have been sent back to Elgin at some time and during the repairs it got new markings. I will dig out the 3 7435xxx 150's out and take a picture if you are correct then they should look completely different.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions

    Yes, my theory is that my LS 150 got reworked - either from inventory or as a result of a return - at some point before the decision was made to go with the new gr 277 (from stock), or possibly even after the gr 277 was abandoned (from stock or return)!
    Last edited by Dave Chaplain; 09-11-2017 at 11:34 AM.
    Member Chapter 149

  14. #14

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions (By: Dave Chaplain)

    FWIW - it makes sense to me that Elgin would choose a serial number break point for the gr 277 rather than include all gr 150 in stock, including the lower serial number ranges, to keep those gr 150 in stock for the existing retail trade and ads. Which would make the lower serial number ranges that were still in stock subject to new decisions based on inventory after the gr 277 came about, and beyond the short lived gr 277.
    Member Chapter 149

  15. #15
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Tracking Elgin grade 150 pendant set to grade 277 lever set conversions (By: 49stude63)

    The earliest comments in the notes for position marking (adding it) was with the 274 at 11.5M http://elginwatches.org/scans/tech_d...274_notes.html the grade 214 and 367 were noted with the position marking added in the 14-15M range.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 21
    Last Post: 04-03-2015, 02:52 PM
  2. Elgin grade 494 23j WI, lever set normal, pendant set military?
    By 49stude63 in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-09-2014, 08:12 PM
  3. What was Elgins first 16s open face 3/4 plate lever set movment
    By 49stude63 in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-13-2011, 10:03 PM
  4. 21 jewel grade 150 elgin pocket watch
    By 21jewel92 in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-11-2006, 01:59 AM
  5. A pendant set ?railroad grade? question
    By Spike in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-22-2002, 04:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •