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  1. #1

    Default Tool and equipment pointers needed

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    1. First question: will this type spring winder do a passable job for a beginner?

    2. Let-down tool: Just looking for a recommendation of brand or style that's basic and inexpensive

    3 Bushings: I found a clock that I'm going to do my first open-heart surgery on; hopefully I picked wisely. It's a Sessions strike movement, and it looks simple, open and accessible. So, what I want to know, is what size bushings am I likely to need on this clock. Timesavers has several assortments in brass or bronze, and in varying size ranges. If I'm likely to only need a couple of sizes, I might just opt to buy individual packs of those; especially if there are 2 or 3 common sizes needed for most jobs. And for installing them...I know the basic principles; I was just wondering if anyone had recommendations on basic jigs or tools. I've used both a C-clamp and a pair of vise-grips along with a 5/16 nut to brad master links on motorcycle chains, and a C-clamp was what came immediately to mind for clock bushings. I realize that I am dealing with a softer metal in a situation where accuracy is critical, though, and I can imagine that a bushing that was cocked even the slightest bit would cause some major issues. So, what did you guys start out with on your first bushing job?

    For those who are offering advice, this is important to bear in mind: I don't have a workshop, or even a workbench, to speak of. I live in an apartment complex and my kitchen table is my clock shop. All that will change in the next couple of years, as I plan to buy a house on some acreage, and at that point I'll be ready ot set up a well-appointed shop for cars, clocks and motorcycles. For now though, everything has to be hand-held or portable. Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	353007 This is the movement I plan to start with.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    That tool is pretty much useless.
    You can use the movements frame as a winder. All you need is the retainer clips, a length of soft iron wire (to attach the mainwheel to the frame) and a letdown tool. Actually you can use the soft iron wire in place of the retainer clips if you wish.
    I think that all of this may have already been mentioned on the last thread? Maybe someone has a photo of this setup.
    Willie X

  3. #3
    Registered user. kinsler33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    I have one of those mainspring winders (I suspect everyone has) but I've never used it. For your first clock, you may not need one: just wind the clock and let the springs down into one of those C-clamps (I like the flattish kind) or else wind some steel wire (the Dollar Tree has some) around the wound-up springs several times and twist it securely. Then let the mainsprings down. This will render the clock harmless.

    As for a let-down tool, you can take an 8" piece of 1/2" PVC pipe and saw a slit in its end parallel to the pipe's axis. The slit should be wide enough so you can slip the wings of the clock's winding key such that the barrel of the key sticks out of the end of the pipe. Then tape the key in place, and you've got a pretty good let-down tool.

    For most American clocks, I use KWM bronze bushings with inner diameters between 1.0 mm and 1.9 mm in steps of 0.1 mm. These will fit the hole made by a #3 KWM reamer, which I use in my old drill press. As for bushing height, it's generally better to use short ones so you don't have to trim them off. I'd measure the thickness of your Sessions clock plates and order bushings close to that height. That'll make nine sizes of bushings; I store mine in a pill container that has individual little lids for each day of the week, morning and evening. Make labels. I think you'll find that this is cheaper and more efficient than the bushing assortments they sell; at least that's my experience.

    My favorite bushing insertion tools are (1) a pair of Pakistani parallel-jaw pliers with smooth jaws purchased through eBay for maybe sixteen bucks and (2) a pair of very small welding Vise-Grip pliers I got at Harbor Freight Tools for maybe three bucks. These have pads on the jaws that swivel so they'll lie flat against the plate. When inserting bushings with pliers make sure there's nothing on the other side of the plate that you might crush, like a lever that swings in the way. Shouldn't be a problem with your Sessions.
    The parallel-jaw pliers work very well for seating bushings near the edge of the plate, which many are.

    While you're at it, buy some sort of a hand-held countersink to bevel off both the bushing bores and to de-burr the hole made by the bushing reamer. And buy some red and some blue thread locker, which can rescue you if you have a loose bushing and/or gear.

    You'll also want a set of bargain five-sided reamers from Timesavers or somewhere. The sizes should range from close to .3mm up to perhaps 4 or 5 mm, at least to start. And you'll need a pin vise to turn them. Don't buy anything made in Switzerland if you can help it: it's beautiful stuff, but Indian or Chinese tools will work fine.

    You'll have to file out holes to be bushed so that the hole you drill with the reamer is centered at the point where the pivot originally went through the plate. Timesavers has a set of really thin Chinese diamond rotary files that can be used either by hand or with a rotary tool for this purpose: it's Timesavers #29069 and they're four bucks for a set of ten.

    You'll also want a good task light. Any desk lamp will work; I have a gooseneck single-LED desk lamp from Ikea, ten bucks. Buy a jeweler's loupe wherever you can find one cheap; Timesavers and Harbor Freight have 'em.

    Lacking a drill press or bushing machine or milling machine, you'll probably find it easiest to drill bushing holes with a power screwdriver. Timesavers has the adapter for a KWM reamer; seven bucks, and make sure you drill the holes square to the plate. If they're tilted, the bushing bore will be tilted too, and you'll have to correct this with one of your five-sided reamers.

    For pivot polishing I've been using Timesavers emery buffs, 75 cents each if you buy six, which you should: 1/0, 2/0, 3/0, 4/0/ 5/0, and 6/0. This last one leaves a mirror finish on steel.

    Take photographs of anything you're planning to disassemble. I like Nye synthetic clock oil, and I'm experimenting with PBlaster Multi-Lube (new product) for mainspring lubrication.)

    M Kinsler

    I work off the dining room table too.
    512 East Mulberry Street; Lancaster, Ohio USA 740-503-1973; kinsler33@gmail.com
    http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/search/kinsler/

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    [QUOTE=bikerclockguy;1132971]

    1. First question: will this type spring winder do a passable job for a beginner?

    2. Let-down tool: Just looking for a recommendation of brand or style that's basic and inexpensive

    3 Bushings: I found a clock that I'm going to do my first open-heart surgery on; hopefully I picked wisely. It's a Sessions strike movement, and it looks simple, open and accessible. So, what I want to know, is what size bushings am I likely to need on this clock. Timesavers has several assortments in brass or bronze, and in varying size ranges. If I'm likely to only need a couple of sizes, I might just opt to buy individual packs of those; especially if there are 2 or 3 common sizes needed for most jobs. And for installing them...I know the basic principles; I was just wondering if anyone had recommendations on basic jigs or tools. I've used both a C-clamp and a pair of vise-grips along with a 5/16 nut to brad master links on motorcycle chains, and a C-clamp was what came immediately to mind for clock bushings. I realize that I am dealing with a softer metal in a situation where accuracy is critical, though, and I can imagine that a bushing that was cocked even the slightest bit would cause some major issues. So, what did you guys start out with on your first bushing job?

    For those who are offering advice, this is important to bear in mind: I don't have a workshop, or even a workbench, to speak of. I live in an apartment complex and my kitchen table is my clock shop. All that will change in the next couple of years, as I plan to buy a house on some acreage, and at that point I'll be ready ot set up a well-appointed shop for cars, clocks and motorcycles. For now though, everything has to be hand-held or portable. This is the movement I plan to start with.[/QUOTE}


    The spring winder will work for the type of movement you are working on.

    If you are going to work on horological movements, you will need something to accurately measure with. At Minimum, you will need a good dial caliper that will allow you to measure the bushing sizes required.


    The following is a response I posted some time ago on accurately rebushing for the first time on a budget. It was a person who had a similar question as yours.




    When you look at a elongated pivot hole you of course have a problem.

    You will certainly court trouble if you create more issues.


    (1) If you file another cavity on the opposite side you now create an even larger issue fugitively speaking.


    (2) With this larger now really odd shaped hole, attempting to locate a center you have permanently removed can be a challenge. Especially with a tapered broach that will take the path of least resistance.


    (3) assuming you get lucky and the broach centers on the original location, you now have a tapered hole for a non tapered bushing.
    Certainly not an ideal mechanical solution.




    For the beginner who is bushing for the very first time, challenges such as these are best avoided where possible and certainly avoidable in this case.


    A logical set goal would be to predetermine where a bushing should be located and provide a method that would assure that location when drilling or using a bushing reamer for proper fit of the bushing.


    If cost is a concern on the initial attempts, I would suggest the following method.


    (1) locate a flat piece of steel about 8" long and drill a bushing size hole in the middle of it.


    (2) position the hole centered on the original pivot hole (Whats left of it) to be re bushed under magnification and clamp on both sides. (Per attached Photo)


    (3) This will provide a guide when drilling or reaming assuring the predetermined location of the bushing hole removing all of the "Luck" and drama. It also provides non tapered bushing holes for proper mechanically fit bushings.

    (4) Remove the flat piece of steel and place the plate on a flat smooth surface for seating the bushing with a punch and hammer. (Very Light taps until the bushing is seated)



    This method can also be used to correct poorly positioned bushing jobs.


    (1) remove the existing bushing and reassemble the movement with poorly bushed arbor and next arbor.


    (2) Install a bushing in the hole in the flat piece of steel and place the bushing/steel over the pivot with the poorly placed bushing.


    (3) This will now allow you to depth the two arbors in place by moving the bushing/steel until ideal depth is achieved. Then clamp in place.


    (4) disassemble the movement, push the bushing out of the steel piece from the back side and redrill/ream the proper depthed location assured by the steel guide.


    While these methods are not fast enough or efficient enough for everyday general repair, they offer the beginner an option for quality work with out experience and minimal cost.


    JerryKieffer
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: Jerry Kieffer)

    I use this spring winder all the time. Only thing is that I had to put it on my lathe and bore out the ID. I had to do this because allot of clicks would not clear the ID. The clamp I had to rework also. The clamp kept slipping. So I put on a different bolt and welded it to the clamp. Took off the butterfly nut and put on a nut that I can actually tighten. Other than all that, works great. The concept is there ,but sometimes ya gotta take a pour design and make it work.
    R&A it is what it is

  6. #6

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: R&A)

    I'll respond with a different perspective. I think the first "tools" one should acquire should be a few good books on clock repair. "Clock Repair Basics" by Steven Conover http://www.clockmakersnewsletter.com..._Products.html is a good one, there are others. Such books describe in detail the operations required to service clocks and the tools required to do so.

    The spring winding gizmo, as others have said, can work on open springs but probably isn't the best use of limited resources. There are a number of commercial and home-built winders that do work well for a variety of spring types but they all have limitations. Again, see what is demonstrated in various clock repair publications as well as searching for spring winders here.

    There are at least a dozen methods to install bushings and just as many opinions regarding the what is the correct way and what's wrong with all the other ways. Again, I recommend first referring to the published literature BUT NOT YOU-TUBE which has as much bad information as good. Before attempting any bushing method, focus on the desired outcome - a clean straight pivot hole positioned exactly where the original hole was. Any method, using the simplest or most exotic tools, can go wrong if poorly executed. Every method has limitations. Tens of thousands of "ordinary" clocks have been rebuilt successfully and run for many decades using the simplest tools. Some methods that may produce satisfactory outcomes on an "ordinary" American kitchen clock for example could be a disaster if applied to fine precision time piece. Focus on the objective, use some common sense, and ask is the method I'm considering likely to accomplish this objective? And have other successfully accomplished this same objective using this method?

    I have to disagree generally with the advice to use short bushings that don't need to be trimmed, especially in American clocks. Stock bushings come usually come with a fairly deep "oil sink". Most American clocks don't have oil sinks and those that do often have them on only one plate. When there is no oil sink the pivot is supported by the full thickness of the plate. If that plate is bushed with a bushing that has an oil sink, then there will be significantly less area to support the pivot. As for bushings to order, I suggest ordering bushings after evaluating the clock being rebuilt and order just those sizes in extra quantity. Pretty soon you will have all the sizes you will need for the kinds of clocks you service.

    RC

  7. #7
    Forums Administrator harold bain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: R&A)

    How does this winder work with barrelled springs?
    harold bain, Member ch 33
    "If it won't "tick",
    let me "tock" to it"

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: harold bain)

    Quote Originally Posted by harold bain View Post
    How does this winder work with barrelled springs?
    Don't be silly.
    Tinker Dwight

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: Tinker Dwight)

    Barrelled springs are a fact of life if you are repairing clocks. A spring winder that works on every type of spring you may run into is a worthwhile investment if you are looking to be a clock repairman. Early in my clock repairing I determined that fact. I bought a Webster that is still doing the job for me. Springs are dangerous. Having the best equipment to deal with them is something you should think about before the trip to emergency after a spring gets away from you.
    harold bain, Member ch 33
    "If it won't "tick",
    let me "tock" to it"

  10. #10

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    I don't see this Encyclopedia link in the thread but I don't have my glasses so if I missed it, my apologies. I don't read so good without them.


  11. #11

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Time After Time View Post
    I don't see this Encyclopedia link in the thread but I don't have my glasses so if I missed it, my apologies. I don't read so good without them.
    Unfortunately that link only describes some of the tools that clock people use including many duplications and no real recommendations. One doesn't need several lathes and several spring winders etc. You may find more relevant material on this page http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?1...going-Interest

    RC

  12. #12

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    Quote Originally Posted by harold bain View Post
    How does this winder work with barrelled springs?
    It works perfect for what I use it for. But why would you ask this.Oh are you getting a funny. Plus if you look, this movement that I posted about Doesn't have barrel. But I have a Bergeon spring winder, if that satisfies your curiosity. And works well , but also has it's limitation just like any winder.
    Last edited by shutterbug; 08-10-2017 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Added the quote I though was being referenced.
    R&A it is what it is

  13. #13

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Croswell View Post
    Unfortunately that link only describes some of the tools that clock people use including many duplications and no real recommendations. One doesn't need several lathes and several spring winders etc. You may find more relevant material on this page http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?1...going-Interest

    RC
    I agree that it's abridged, kind of a Reader's Digest version (you have to be pretty old to get that analogy), but it's a start. It probably raises more questions than it answers and so the journey begins...


  14. #14

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    Biker: Have you read this? Bushing Using Hand Tools

    That gizmo works fine for loop-end springs like the ones in your clock.

    Take a 6" piece of pvc pipe, saw a slot into the raw end to hold a winding key. Presto! letdown tool.

    Accumulate tools as you need them. You don't need everything at once.

    When these guys talk about "C-clamps" they actually mean C-restraints, not the kind you use to clamp two things together.
    1. Check out the Repair Hints & How-To's forum. You may find your answer there.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    I guess bangster prefers to answer your question(s),, okay, for me there was an early question as to which pre-manufactured bushing system to buy into? KWM or Bergeon. My understanding at the time was that KWM bushings generally have a smaller footprint or outer diameter so I've gone with them since 2010. Folks that use Bergeon seem to like them as well. Here's a brief thread on the subject: http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?6...KWM-vs-Bergeon I'm sure there are many more.

    I went straight to a Ollie Baker Spring Winder because that is what my Mentor strongly recommended. Its aluminum bed has a few deep nicks in it where mainsprings tried to get away from me so I'm glad that I have it. (Better it than me)


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