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  1. #31

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerclockguy View Post
    Awesome article, especially using the cross-hairs to center the bushing placement. I bought a Dremel tool and drill press type adapter to hold it, so I can get true 90-degree angles at my kitchen table, but the cross-hair trick alone mad it worth the read. I do have a question though. The very last instruction in the article says "Broach and smooth the bush to fit the pivot" Why wouldn't you just use a bushing with an ID that fit the pivot in the first place? I know the ODs are different to accommodate different bushing hole requirements, but aren't the pivots pretty much standardized?
    If the bushing is a good press fit, the ID will close. You can go the next ID size up in anticipation of that closure, but it's always an approximation. Say your pivot measures 1.0mm. If you select a 1.1mm ID bushing, you'll probably need to broach to size. If you start with a 1.2mm ID, you probably won't need to broach but you don't have a much control either. If there was a lot of wear previously, almost anything will be an improvement but if the wear was borderline and you are just being thorough while you have the plates apart, you'll want to see an improvement in the bearing fit. You might not see much if you start with a loose fit. Some techniques call for smooth broaching to work-harden the ID wall. In that techique you always need to start small, cut to a tight fit and finish up what a smooth broach to harden the brass. Many different approaches. In any case, if you start loose you should be okay. As you progress, you'll want to add a set of cutting and smooth broaches to your shop. Go with five-sided cutting broaches. They should self-center better than four-sided broaches.

    P.S. Be careful to resist the temptation to get a very low tolerance pivot/bushing fit on these types of clocks. I can almost guarantee that if you do, you'll be splitting the plates a second time for broaching due to binding that occurs when the movement gets wound up.
    Last edited by Time After Time; 08-12-2017 at 07:14 AM. Reason: P.S.


  2. #32

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    We all have our personal favorite suppliers and some we probably wouldn't give the time of day to.

    Don't forget about the permanent info threads at the top of the forum.

    From there, here's a comprehensive list of suppliers for example:

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?4...ir-Service-Etc

    Some have a below minimum order total handling charge, some have handling charges on all orders. Some tack on shipping insurance charges unless you ask them not too. Shipping, handling, insurance charges add up so all else being equal, they'll figure in. Large orders, not so much. Small, as needed orders...they become significant to the price you're paying.

    I usually shop timesavers, which I think you said you were preparing an order for, but you do have good alternatives and they (Timesavers) don't carry some things you can find elsewhere. Shop around.


  3. #33

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: Time After Time)

    Thanks a million once again, guys! I bought a Dremmel Workstation and Dremmel rotary tool, so I have a kitchen table drill press for a hundred bucks, and I went with a KWM bushing assortment #10889 that has 2.7mm bushings in stepped 1mm increments, so I should be good to go there for at least my first 2 projects. For the rest of it, I borrowed a few suggestions from everyone, and for a little over $300, I think I'm set to enjoy my new hobby. It will likely be next weekend or close to it when I get started, and I'll definitely keep you guys posted!

  4. #34

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    My favorite supplier is Ronell Clocks. No small-order charge.

    Their inventory isn't as large as Timesavers, but for things you're most likely to want, they're good to work with.
    Get their catalog.
    1. Check out the Repair Hints & How-To's forum. You may find your answer there.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bangster)

    I'll check them out, thanks!

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    Biker is sounds like you have done quite a bit of stuff. There are all sorts of special tools that you can make yourself. Even with the limited space and equipment that you have.

    If you don't mind considering used tools I suggest you look at Uncle Larry's website. While he is mostly all about watches he does have a selection of tools for both watches and clocks. I have purchased from him in the past and have been pleased with what I have received. However I am in no way associated with him or his business. And as a friendly note. I have tried to deal him down in the past, but to no avail, so gave that one up. Even if I didn't see something on his site, I have emailed him and he has come up with something that wasn't listed yet.

    David
    David S

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: Time After Time)

    Quote Originally Posted by Time After Time View Post
    If the bushing is a good press fit, the ID will close. You can go the next ID size up in anticipation of that closure, but it's always an approximation. Say your pivot measures 1.0mm. If you select a 1.1mm ID bushing, you'll probably need to broach to size. If you start with a 1.2mm ID, you probably won't need to broach but you don't have a much control either. If there was a lot of wear previously, almost anything will be an improvement but if the wear was borderline and you are just being thorough while you have the plates apart, you'll want to see an improvement in the bearing fit. You might not see much if you start with a loose fit. Some techniques call for smooth broaching to work-harden the ID wall. In that techique you always need to start small, cut to a tight fit and finish up what a smooth broach to harden the brass. Many different approaches. In any case, if you start loose you should be okay. As you progress, you'll want to add a set of cutting and smooth broaches to your shop. Go with five-sided cutting broaches. They should self-center better than four-sided broaches.

    P.S. Be careful to resist the temptation to get a very low tolerance pivot/bushing fit on these types of clocks. I can almost guarantee that if you do, you'll be splitting the plates a second time for broaching due to binding that occurs when the movement gets wound up.
    This is good advice. I always try to be too tidy when bushing, and sometimes things lock up; the latest being a Hermle carriage clock movement with 0.9mm pivots. A spring-wound clock movement will tend to twist a bit when fully-wound, so you need a bit more shake in its pivots than perhaps you'd wish to see. 0.1 or 0.2 mm of shake isn't going to stop the clock.

    It's been my experience that a smooth broach never seems to enlarge a pivot hole enough to notice.

    Mark Kinsler
    512 East Mulberry Street; Lancaster, Ohio USA 740-503-1973; kinsler33@gmail.com
    http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/search/kinsler/

  8. #38

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: kinsler33)

    I will definitely heed the advice, guys, and it makes sense. I hadn't considered the bushing ID shrinking; mostly because everything I've done along those lines had been a lot bigger and the material was harder as well, and it wasn't a worry in those cases. I had been thinking(just in general, before the bushing fir question came up)that I would go with a fit on the looser side. I know what can happen if things are too tight, and by the same token, my old Ansonia is loose as a goose and still keeps good time. So, along those lines, is .1mm over pivot diameter a good rule of thumb when selecting bushings? I think I will buy a set of cutting and smoothing broaches too, while I'm at it. In for a penny, in for a pound as they say, and I'd hate to botch my first bushing job because I didn't have the tools to do it right.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    I definitely recommend a set of cutting and smoothing broaches (and a good pin vise to hold them) if you're going to do bushing work. There is some variance in just how tight a bushing will fit into your prepared plate so there will be variance in the ID shrinkage. Also, Pivots don't always "fit" neatly into our set sizes anyway. The smaller the pivot, the more that will be the case I think. To answer your question, I generally go 0.1 mm over the pivot measurement and I frequently have to broach for a good fit afterwards.

    Some folks recommend use of Loctite when placing bushings. It shouldn't really be necessary if there is a good press fit, but from time to time, for one reason or another, you will run across a loose fit situation and you'll need a way to make sure the bushing stays put. Another method to deal with a loose bushing is to peen it by striking a small ball bearing resting in the hole/oil sink. While that approach works well and is fast you'll definitely need to broach afterwards.


  10. #40

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    I agree with Tat.

    Many clock repairers don't use the full asortments though. They only use two or three bushing sizes in each catagory. A category being all the bushing sizes available for a single cutter size. For the KWM. ystem a #3 cutter will be used for about 90% of your work. An abrevitated set of bushings requires a much smaller inventory but a lot more broaching ...
    You can't do bushing work without cutting broaches. All pivot holes have to be fitted to each individual pinion. The smooth broaches are important too, especially on low powered clocks, like French clocks and 400-Day clocks. You could postpone the smooth broaches for later but you will need a good champering tool. All new bushings need a slight chamfer on the inside edge of the pivot hole.
    Willie X

  11. #41

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: Willie X)

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie X View Post
    I agree with Tat. You could postpone the smooth broaches for later but you will need a good champering tool. All new bushings need a slight chamfer on the inside edge of the pivot hole.
    Willie X
    Willie;
    Why do you need a chamfer on the inboard side of the bushing?
    The man who knows how to make it work will always have a job, The man who knows why it makes it work will always be his boss. Website http://sailorsandsettlersantiques.com

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: bikerclockguy)

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerclockguy View Post
    I think I will buy a set of cutting and smoothing broaches too, while I'm at it. In for a penny, in for a pound as they say, and I'd hate to botch my first bushing job because I didn't have the tools to do it right.
    Biker
    I could not agree more with your last sentence.

    From what I can see in the photo, your movement looks somewhat unmolested and being very loose would indicate that it has most likely ran for many many years.
    If so, this would indicate that the manufacturer got it right and produced a properly functioning instrument that ran for a very long period of time. The original pivot holes were straight and round as well as aligned 90 degrees to the plate and generally 3-5 percent larger than the pivot for this type movement. This was done in this manner to most effectively utilize lubrication to decrease friction as well as maximize lubrication retention. By retuning a movement to its original condition, you greatly increase your chances of a strong running movement. The use of conventional drills and reamers can produce straight round holes that are properly aligned in the same manner as manufacturer. The original manufacturers did not use smoothing broaches.

    Jerry Kieffer

  13. #43

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: Jerry Kieffer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Kieffer View Post
    Biker
    I could not agree more with your last sentence.

    From what I can see in the photo, your movement looks somewhat unmolested and being very loose would indicate that it has most likely ran for many many years.
    If so, this would indicate that the manufacturer got it right and produced a properly functioning instrument that ran for a very long period of time. The original pivot holes were straight and round as well as aligned 90 degrees to the plate and generally 3-5 percent larger than the pivot for this type movement. This was done in this manner to most effectively utilize lubrication to decrease friction as well as maximize lubrication retention. By retuning a movement to its original condition, you greatly increase your chances of a strong running movement. The use of conventional drills and reamers can produce straight round holes that are properly aligned in the same manner as manufacturer. The original manufacturers did not use smoothing broaches.

    Jerry Kieffer
    Surely original manufacturer drilled/reamed straight holes because it was the most efficient way to manufacture the movement burnishing the pivot holes would of been out of the question in a production environment.
    Stephen Benson - Clock website www.ajsbsa.co.uk There is no time, only clocks

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed (By: AJSBSA)

    [QUOTE=AJSBSA;1133853]Surely original manufacturer drilled/reamed straight holes because it was the most efficient way to manufacture the movement burnishing the pivot holes would of been out of the question in a production environment.[/QUOTE}

    Actually, drilled ,stamped, straight, angled, burnished or whatever is desired in a hole, will have no effect in a production environment. This has been demonstrated by various venders in every machine tool show I have ever attended. If a Burnished hole were desired, the punch/drill/reamer would simply have a short section above the first operation section and would be performed as part of creating the hole. The time involved would be so minuscule, it would be difficult to measure.
    If you contact Horological manufacturers, you will find that they do not burnish holes where steel (Pivots) and brass (Pivot holes) are utilized because there has been no demonstrated value unless for sizing/shaping a hole. However the finish on the pivots is extremely important and this is where their efforts are focused.

    Jerry Kieffer
    Last edited by Jerry Kieffer; 08-13-2017 at 05:25 PM.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Tool and equipment pointers needed

    Jerry,
    The old American manufacturers didn't take much time polishing pivots either. Some pivots will still have the tool marks from the lathe.
    I wouldn't think that lowering standards, just because the maker decided to cut corners, is a good policy.
    Willie X

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by shutterbug; 08-13-2017 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Removed repeated posts

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