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  1. #1

    Default 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input!

    I am posting this here because the moderator in the European forum suggested that the case may be American and I may find someone who could shed some light on this. Here is the original posting: OK,let me start off by saying that I know I probably paid too much but when I saw this 18KT CASE,I just had to have it! I don’t think the movement is anything too special, except that it seems to be n excellent/near mint condition and runs very well. But that case!To convert between OF and HC ---- what engineering and craftsmanship! Fiendishly complicated, since I had NO prior experience with this case type, it took me an hour of careful, thoughtful manipulations to access all the covers without damaging anything. Photo 1 is the OF configuration, photos 2 & 3 the HC configuration. It measures 56mm and weighs 156 grams. So,I would like to ask a few things: 1) do any of you have a watch with a convertible case and if so would you mind posting a photo or two?,and 2) any general info on the movement or case would be appreciated(from some of the info I have read, the 25 Church St address would date this movement to an earlier time (pre 1830)than the case (1868)and yet the serial numbers match on both??) I have also posted this in "What's my watch worth forum for anyone interested. Thanks for any input in advance!
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    Last edited by Dave Coatsworth; 07-12-2017 at 08:36 PM. Reason: Remove jumbo photos

  2. #2
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: docbooks)

    As I mentioned in the value discussion, the "magic" is that the pendant moves with respect to the dial when the case is reconfigured.

    I think I recall that Clint had one of these at one time with a nice Howard movement in it, but that was a long time ago and my memories may be a bit scrambled.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: docbooks)

    I don’t think the movement is anything too special
    Josh Johnson turned out some of Liverpool's finest movements. Regards Ray

  4. #4
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: Omexa)

    Good Lord that's beautiful! Thank you for sharing these pics docbooks.

  5. #5
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: Paul Raposo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Raposo View Post
    Good Lord that's beautiful! Thank you for sharing these pics docbooks.
    yes I agree, thanks for sharing the photos of your beautiful watch.




    Rob

  6. #6

    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: musicguy)

    Quote Originally Posted by musicguy View Post
    yes I agree, thanks for sharing the photos of your beautiful watch.




    Rob
    - - - Updated - - -

    Thanks for the input Ray....I will be spending some time researching him!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omexa View Post
    Josh Johnson turned out some of Liverpool's finest movements. Regards Ray

  7. #7

    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: Tom McIntyre)

    And also the "Magic" is that some one could engineer and build this 150 years ago!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom McIntyre View Post
    As I mentioned in the value discussion, the "magic" is that the pendant moves with respect to the dial when the case is reconfigured.

    I think I recall that Clint had one of these at one time with a nice Howard movement in it, but that was a long time ago and my memories may be a bit scrambled.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by musicguy View Post
    yes I agree, thanks for sharing the photos of your beautiful watch.




    Rob

  8. #8
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: docbooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by docbooks View Post
    And also the "Magic" is that some one could engineer and build this 150 years ago!
    Without computer controlled machines or CAD!

  9. #9

    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: Paul Raposo)

    Or electricity!
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Raposo View Post
    Without computer controlled machines or CAD!

  10. #10
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: docbooks)

    Someone should merge this thread and the other of the same topic.



    Rob

  11. #11

    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: musicguy)

    Rob,
    docbooks posted in both the American and European forums for a good reason (English movement, possibly American case). Merging them back together would defeat that.

  12. #12

    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input! (By: docbooks)

    Let me preface this by reiterating that I still have not become completely familiar with manipulating this watch! So, I included a video to show the conversion process as well as accessing the movement for anyone who is interested. https://youtu.be/-sZs3AbB6xE. But, be kind ---- "No watches were harmed in the making of this video"

  13. #13
    Registered User Clint Geller's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input!

    I have owned two American keywind watches, both Howards, with 18K reversible cases that used mechanisms patented by Baldwin. These were respectively a very early Model 1858 Type C, (Series I) Howard (movement and case with matching serial # 132!), and a first run nickel third series (Model 1862), SN # 21,572, with Mershon's regulator. I have also seen Waltham Model 1857 and 1859 Model movements in Baldwin reversible cases. I've also seen a second series Howard (Model 1858 Type E) in a silver Baldwin reversible case. However, the case in this thread does not seem to be of the same design, as it is a swing-out. The Baldwin mechanism has a ring holding the movement, which rotates on an axis oriented at a 45 degree angle (from 1:30 to 7:30) with the line made by the pendant and the back hinge. Thus, by rotating the ring by 180 degrees about its axis, one converts the watch from the hunting configuration to the open face case configuration. I'll post some pictures of the Baldwin watches later. (One of them is pictured on covers of my book.)
    Last edited by Clint Geller; 07-14-2017 at 07:55 PM.
    Clint Geller, FNAWCC, # 84,947

  14. #14

    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input!

    I am interested to view your photos and see how they differ with this one---- from your description, it sounds that the cases you describe would be a less confusing way to reverse the movement----thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Clint Geller View Post
    I have owned two American keywind watches, both Howards, with 18K reversible cases that used mechanisms patented by Baldwin. These were respectively a very early Model 1858 Type C, (Series I) Howard (movement and case with matching serial # 132!), and a first run nickel third series (Model 1862), SN # 21,572, with Mershon's regulator. I have also seen Waltham Model 1857 and 1859 Model movements in Baldwin reversible cases. I've also seen a second series Howard (Model 1858 Type E) in a silver Baldwin reversible case. However, the case in this thread does not seem to be of the same design, as it is a swing-out. The Baldwin mechanism has a ring holding the movement, which rotates on an axis oriented at a 45 degree angle (from 1:30 to 7:30) with the line made by the pendant and the back hinge. Thus, by rotating the ring by 180 degrees about its axis, one converts the watch from the hunting configuration to the open face case configuration. I'll post some pictures of the Baldwin watches later. (One of them is pictured on covers of my book.)

  15. #15
    Registered User Clint Geller's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1860's Fusee in 18KT CONVERTIBLE case , runs fine, would like input!

    Quote Originally Posted by docbooks View Post
    I am interested to view your photos and see how they differ with this one---- from your description, it sounds that the cases you describe would be a less confusing way to reverse the movement----thanks!
    I remembered that pictures of the two gold Baldwin reversible case Howard keywind watches I mentioned previously are available at the link below. Both of these watches were exhibited at the 2002 NAWCC National Seminar: "Boston, Cradle of Industrial Watchmaking," in Boxborough, MA, which I chaired. Click on the links therein to "S# 132" and to "nickel finish."

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160305.../howardcat.htm
    Clint Geller, FNAWCC, # 84,947

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