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  1. #16
    Registered User Willys_1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: RJSoftware)

    Only one of the arbors (the one that was soldered to the mainspring) has the brass sleeve. I'm thinking about machining it off and making a arbor new hook.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: Willys_1)

    I was looking at that solder bushing. I looks like he stuffed the pivot
    into the mostly hot solder.Wow!
    What a hack job.
    Tinker Dwight

  3. #18

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: Tinker Dwight)

    Willys, I find it incomprehensible that the hack did not do what you intend to do. (install a new arbor hook)
    It seems some people don't want to do the simplest machining steps even if they can get by with doing it with a hand drill.
    While I may be pounced here about using a hand drill, it is still possible to do a passing job with one on a hook as you have to do, plus drilling out for bushing replacements as he ought to have done on the pivot.
    Dave.

  4. #19

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron...

    Quote Originally Posted by Willys_1 View Post
    Only one of the arbors (the one that was soldered to the mainspring) has the brass sleeve. I'm thinking about machining it off and making a arbor new hook.
    That's exactly what I did in my case. I used a screw for a hook and reshaped the head. Maybe the person didn't have a lathe, but that's when you "step away from the soldering iron" and farm it out.

    Here's a photo of the Sleeve (or "spool") that I ran across:


    Here are a couple of photos of how I repaired the resulting damage to C-2


    I machined off the original sleeve which I could not get to work reliably with the new mainspring



    and fit a more conventional round brass sleeve. I used a screw as the replacement hook. Although not shown in the photo, I filed the screw head down to a directional, lower profile hook.



    Somehow, Junghans must have gotten their off-set sleeves to work but I just could not get the inner coil of the replacement mainspring to conform reliably to the shape of the original sleeve. Evidently someone before me must have had the same problem which resulted in significant damage to the gear train. Although I am reluctant to alter original parts, I thought it was justified in this case. I suppose that simply removing the sleeve would have worked too but I wanted to retain as much of the original form as I could.
    What I did to repair the movement worked. I'm sure someone with more skills and knowledge could have done a better job, but I'm glad that I wasn't tempted to throw some solder at the problem.
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    Last edited by Time After Time; 07-14-2017 at 03:48 PM.


  5. #20
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    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: Time After Time)

    Nice work Bruce. Sometimes you have to do what you think is best with what you have. Others with different resources may take a different tact..so be it.

    David
    David S

  6. #21

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron...

    I copied Willie's initial post to the Hall of Shame thread, with a link back to this thread.

    bangster
    moderator
    A reminder: It is common MB courtesy to acknowledge / thank people for the information and assistance they give you

  7. #22

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: David S)

    Thanks David. Many of us are still early in the learning phase. One just does the best they can and hope that "best" gets better. When correctly applied, I believe there is a place for various solders in Horology. I don't think that "Gluing" mainsprings to arbors is one of them!

    You should at least have a good idea of what you're attempting. The MB's collective knowledge/wisdom can help steer us in the right direction. I must admit that much more often than not, that direction is away from solder.


  8. #23

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: Time After Time)

    Time after time,
    but I'm glad that I wasn't tempted to throw some solder at the problem
    I would not have faulted the use of a bit of solder on that screw's threads to lock it, so long as you cleaned up after.
    You went up to close to original diameter with the brass collar, so you were faithful to the diameter needed to keep the spring and the arbor from growing weak. Good fix.
    Dave.

  9. #24

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: Time After Time)

    Quote Originally Posted by Time After Time View Post
    Thanks David. Many of us are still early in the learning phase. One just does the best they can and hope that "best" gets better. When correctly applied, I believe there is a place for various solders in Horology. I don't think that "Gluing" mainsprings to arbors is one of them!

    You should at least have a good idea of what you're attempting. The MB's collective knowledge/wisdom can help steer us in the right direction. I must admit that much more often than not, that direction is away from solder.
    I agree that there are a few places where solder may be appropriate but affixing main springs to winding arbors is certainly not one of them. There are four (*perhaps more) questions one should ask before using solder:

    1. Is there a reasonable expectation based on past experience and other examples that soldering will result is a durable and functional repair?

    2. Will the clock be damaged the by soldering, or damaged if the "repair" fails, such that the "repair" cannot easily be reversed and redone using a more acceptable method later?

    3. Is the person doing the repair doing so as a business and charging someone else for the work? One is of course free to use and abuse one's own clocks in any way one deems appropriate and learn from the mistakes, failures, and successes, but when one represents ones self as a "clock repair technician" offering services to others one has an obligation to adhere more closely to recognized "best methods" which may or may not occasionally include solder.

    4. Do you really know HOW to solder? Many "solder repairs" fail not because solder was used, but because the solder was incorrectly applied, wrong type of solder used, wrong flux used, improper surface prep, too much heat, too little heat, too much solder, incomplete flux removal, and so on.

    RC

  10. #25

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: R. Croswell)

    Look at Solder 101
    A reminder: It is common MB courtesy to acknowledge / thank people for the information and assistance they give you

  11. #26

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron...

    Quote Originally Posted by PWfanatik View Post
    Time after time,

    I would not have faulted the use of a bit of solder on that screw's threads to lock it, so long as you cleaned up after.
    You went up to close to original diameter with the brass collar, so you were faithful to the diameter needed to keep the spring and the arbor from growing weak. Good fix.
    Dave.
    Hello Dave, thank you. As I was removing the original spring hook it did occur to me that perhaps the easiest fix would have been to just extrude the hook a little. If I had done that and soldered it as you suggest, that might have provided an adequate anchor/hook to keep the spring from letting loose. I think the original sleeve was ground down a little to allow the end of the inner coil to form a continuation of the sleeve's contour. No doubt it worked beautifully with the original mainspring but it can obviously be quite a trap for folks who need to replace it. I did try to contour the inner coil several times without success and was becoming concerned that I would introduce metal fatigue before I got it right.


  12. #27

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: Time After Time)

    Yep,
    There are folks on here that know a lot about metallurgy and preventing fatigue.
    In the Watch repair forums there is Karl Mansson...
    Keep that winding arbor as large as the original to keep from having the arbor end of the spring breaking due to fatigue as you mention.
    And I suppose some of the grinding you mentioned was on the side of the screw head away from the hook side.
    Thus allowing the main spring to coil over your arbor naturally...
    David.

  13. #28

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: PWfanatik)

    One should keep in mind that the strength of a screw used in this application is similar to that of a steel pin the diameter of the root of the thread. A 1/8" diameter pin in will be significantly stronger than a 1/8" diameter screw.

    RC

  14. #29

    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron... (By: R. Croswell)

    Thanks RC, I see your point and will keep that in mind should I ever use a screw as a hook again. The original hook was no longer a tight enough fit. Perhaps re-use and solder would have been acceptable? This was/is a machine screw with relatively shallow crests (compared to a wood screw) so I think the diameter of the root shouldn't be too much less than a rod. The tapered head was fully seated into the brass sleeve. That probably has no effect as far as tensile strength is concerned but the head at the point of mainspring force probably has similar properties as far a pin is concerned (granted, there is a taper to consider). The original formed pin was not completely round in this case so it probably wasn't as strong as it might be otherwise although it probably isn't significantly weaker. In any case, I'm fairly confident that it will hold. The clock is "permanently" in our collection, so I'll know if it fails again. Hope not. Since I filed down the head to get more of a hook form, getting a pin back out would probably be easier and I sure don't want to take another "crack" at C-2! Thanks again for the cautionary note!


  15. #30
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: Please step away from the soldering iron...

    I sort of feel a sense of discomfort with a thread of this type. It's not that the job was done poorly, or more correctly put, wrong. It's just that I don't need to pat my own back and say to myself "well, at least I'm not that stupid".

    When I run into other people's poorly done work I have to smile to myself because it's a little more gravy on my mash potatoes. It means when I get the job done right it comes back to me. The only time it ever gets me mad is when I purchase something on the quick and I was too lazy to look the thing over and see the error.

    In my younger days I may have done something like that. Full steam ahead and "get-r done". No, I never soldered a mainspring to an arbor but you got to hand it to the guy for his gusto.

    Keep in mind that hind sight is 20-20. The internet is not soo old as some of us are and we didn't have money for much and especially some hobby. So what general references would there even of been? The best we had was Chilton's books for our cars. Who had time for hobbies? Go to a library, we had dirt/grease on our fingers. The only places we went to back then was the junk yard, the parts house or the bar.

    All we really had back then was will power. Today we live in a wonder age of information. It's as different as day and night. These days I have son's in laws that are fairly savvy but they can't even (or probably) won't even twist a wrench. Everything soo disposable. Trade it in. Good money after bad.

    A bad repair job, well, at least he tried.

    RJ
    Last edited by RJSoftware; 07-16-2017 at 10:32 PM.
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