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  1. #1
    Registered user. kinsler33's Avatar
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    Default Seth Thomas #2 escapement worn

    I will post some crude pictures with this as soon as I can figure out how. Local jewelry store, 115 years in business, has a Seth Thomas wall regulator, model unknown, but it looks like a non-trapezoidal #2, where the rectangular time-only movement (with maintaining works and a very shiny weight) pins onto the cast iron pendulum frame.

    The pendulum motion was very small when I saw it maybe three years ago, and now it has stopped completely. They called me the other day to come have a look. So I borrowed a ladder and took off hands and dial to find out why the second hand sort of flips backward now and again. It's also skipping escape wheel teeth when it runs at all.

    Okay, escapement problems. The movement plates have no numbers, no ST logo, no inscription at all. But the dial sez Seth Thomas, and all the parts look like ST, and a repair sticker is dated 1924. I unpinned the movement and sat down in one of the cushy chairs where they tell you to sit when contemplating an engagement ring, with the movement on my lap.

    There's a little rectangular brass tab screwed onto the movement to hold one verge pivot hole, so there was the adjustment. It was impossible: lowering the anchor jammed the movement, raising it let the escape wheel run free. So I took out the verge and egad: both impulse faces of the nice cut steel verge were rounded off but good; I presume that they're supposed to be optically flat. Or at least flat.

    The escape wheel looks okay; at least the teeth didn't get hooked. I put the whole clock back together and left it at the store, telling the owner that the escapement was so badly worn that special measures would have to be taken: cleaning and oiling wouldn't fix his clock, and I'd be consulting with my betters on the subject, which is what I'm doing.

    I suppose that the best alternative is to replace the verge with a "#2 regulator verge" item number 29949 from Timesavers:

    http://timesavers.com/i-9995151-2-regulator-verge.html

    because my assumption is that any attempt, especially by me, to restore the impulse surfaces on the old verge will worsen the already incorrect spacing of the pallets.

    But the Timesavers description says that the verge is 'ready for finishing and polish.' Does this mean that the new verge comes with the casting sand still embedded in it, or should the impulse surfaces be reasonably okay if I just polish them?

    The rest of the clock looks fairly wear-free, albeit dirty.

    Now, I have done some homework, viz. reading through an eight-page post on an ST #2 escapement from 2016. OP's clock had two rivets and a screw to hold the moveable verge pivot hole in place; mine just has one screw.

    While I was there I used my silly flip phone camera to take pictures, but my tremor is such that I think they came out blurry. But they might be useful, and I'll try to post them.

    Any advice would be helpful: I don't think there's anyone left alive fixing clocks around here.

    Mark Kinsler

    although I write a historical feature for the local newspaper and I discovered that in the 1930's there were at least two clock shops in our little town.
    Last edited by bruce linde; 07-06-2017 at 10:21 AM.
    512 East Mulberry Street; Lancaster, Ohio USA 740-503-1973; kinsler33@gmail.com
    http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/search/kinsler/

  2. #2
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: kinsler33)

    Sounds like your on the right track. Only thing I can think to add is that you have to match number of teeth span when selecting a verge. Measure distance on your current one and use that number for a general reference. I notice on other verge of Timesavers you are to count the ew teeth and then refer to their chart.

  3. #3
    Registered User Dave T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: RJSoftware)

    I can't offer much in the way of corrective measures, but it would be great to get some pictures posted. And if it isn't too late correct the spelling on the title for future reference to those searching this topic.

    Also, take a look here. It does answer some of your questions.
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?1...lacement-Parts

  4. #4

    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: kinsler33)

    The palet surfaces can be refaced but this is not an easy job and it has to be precise.
    The palets are usually to narrow to be repositioned but for me repositioning of the pallet assembly or the escape wheel is the preferred repair.
    You may also have to true up the escape wheel.
    Willie X

  5. #5

    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: Dave T)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    I if it isn't too late correct the spelling on the title for future reference to those searching this topic.
    done
    i collect antique clocks because i get all that extra time...

  6. #6
    Registered user. kinsler33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas #2 escapement worn (By: Dave T)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    I can't offer much in the way of corrective measures, but it would be great to get some pictures posted. And if it isn't too late correct the spelling on the title for future reference to those searching this topic.

    Also, take a look here. It does answer some of your questions.
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?1...lacement-Parts
    Whoops. Seth Themas must have been a cousin. He invented plated pivots, the three-plate chiming mantel clock, and those fake mainspring barrels that are riveted to the plate. How can I correct the title of a thread, anyway?

    Yes, I read through the grim procedure for carving out a deadbeat verge from one of the Timesavers castings, and while I fully understand that any junior-grade horologist should be able to file one out from the living rock, I don't know if I'll be able to. I do, however, have a sort of milling machine that's part of my Grizzly 3-in-1 lathe-mill-drill, so that might work.

    However: is this verge the sort of thing that Mr LaBounty could or would make? Or, does anyone else make the things?

    Failing that, it was suggested that spring-steel 'slippers' be soldered to the existing pallet faces. How well does this generally work?

    Ach. The only pictures I was able to get are blurry and don't show much: I'll bring a real camera next time, but here's one non-helpful shot of the movement. Dunno why there are no ST markings on the movement plates.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    M Kinsler

    And thanks for correcting my Seth Themas title. I suppose I was sleepy.
    Last edited by kinsler33; 07-06-2017 at 10:48 AM. Reason: A time/space singularity floated in through the waste portal.
    512 East Mulberry Street; Lancaster, Ohio USA 740-503-1973; kinsler33@gmail.com
    http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/search/kinsler/

  7. #7
    Registered user. kinsler33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas #2 escapement worn (By: kinsler33)

    Here are the other pictures I was able to take of the jewelry store's presumed ST#2 wall regulator. They might help identify the sort of clock it is; right now this is all I've got.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I'm probably in over my head here.

    M Kinsler
    512 East Mulberry Street; Lancaster, Ohio USA 740-503-1973; kinsler33@gmail.com
    http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/search/kinsler/

  8. #8
    Registered User Dave T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas #2 escapement worn (By: kinsler33)

    Nice clock! I'm anxious for someone to tell us what model that one is.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Seth Thomas #2 escapement worn (By: Dave T)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
    Nice clock! I'm anxious for someone to tell us what model that one is.


    it appears to be a regulator 9... which also uses the #61 movement.

    according to the ST #2 identification chart, the #61 movements were unmarked until about the mid-1890s.

    if you're stuck for a place to hang it, lmk. 8-)





    i collect antique clocks because i get all that extra time...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas #2 escapement worn (By: bruce linde)

    While cutting, polishing and tempering a deadbeat pallet can
    be done, even knowing how they work at detail, I my self would
    seriously consider sending it to LaBounty to have him do it.
    He is much better setup for the machining of one of these
    than I am.
    Recoils are relatively easy to create and are fairly forgiving
    of being slightly off.
    Deadbeats require a lot of tuning to get right.
    I would contact LaBounty and see what parts of the clock he'd
    want you to send and how much it will cost.
    Tinker Dwight

  11. #11

    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: Willie X)

    The clock pictured is a ST Regulator #9.

  12. #12
    Registered User Dave T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: jacks61fd)

    Very nice clock. Here's a reference to an example which shows some clear pictures including the movement.

    https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item...-no9-regulator

  13. #13
    Registered user. kinsler33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: Dave T)

    Okay, so the owner of the Seth Thomas #9 clock wants me to repair it and please go easy on the repair fee. I took the movement, mount, weight and pendulum home and I've been working on it. The pallets needed only a slight resurfacing; I'm pretty sure that I got the angle correct.

    However, the pallet spacing is incorrect: either the pallets hang up on the escape wheel teeth or they let it run free; there's no correct setting and it's clear that the pallets are either too close together or too far apart. I know that the pallets should span N + 1/2 escape-wheel teeth, where N is some integer, but they span precisely N teeth.

    There wasn't enough wear on the pallets to account for their improper spacing, so my assumption is that the pallets were re-surfaced one or more times in the past. Is there a rational way to (cringe) squeeze the pallets together a bit? The anchor is pretty hard, though I assume I could let it down enough to bend it without breaking. I know that this will mess up the impulse surface angles, but those could be adjusted. Or, should I add little shoes to the impulse surfaces, and if so, how thick?

    Failing that, which I'm good at, I suppose I can try my luck with one of the TimeSavers ST #2 anchors.

    I know we've been through some of this previously in this thread, but I'd appreciate any thoughts on the subject.

    Mark Kinsler
    512 East Mulberry Street; Lancaster, Ohio USA 740-503-1973; kinsler33@gmail.com
    http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/search/kinsler/

  14. #14
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn (By: kinsler33)

    How are you measuring, from lock spot to lock spot, or impulse tip to impulse tip?

    Usually when someone has ground the palettes too short then you have to repair or replace. The ability to reach down to lock gets compromised when the palettes get shaved too short. This happens when fiddling with the proper impulse angle worry. You know, like shaving a leg on a chair to get rid of the wobble. Cut this leg a bit, now the other one wobbles. Repeat.

    You could find a piece of brass or steel and make another. Drill a hole in the scrap metal so the arbor slides on. Then use a needle and scratch the outline of the anchor and palettes, then add a little extra length to the palettes before you cut it.

    You could just add extra length till you intersect with the N + 1/2 distance. I would use impulse tips as the intersect points.

    The N I would just match to what was existing that you have now. Somehow I always think 7. Not sure why...
    I think it could be the normal tooth span. I hardly ever have to do this. But I would use the number your current anchor establishes.

    Fine tune the 1/2 part by the intersect. 1/2+ or 1/2- I don't know. Tinker could probably answer that. When it comes to the more scientific aspects he's the man.


    RJ


    Quote Originally Posted by kinsler33 View Post
    Okay, so the owner of the Seth Thomas #9 clock wants me to repair it and please go easy on the repair fee. I took the movement, mount, weight and pendulum home and I've been working on it. The pallets needed only a slight resurfacing; I'm pretty sure that I got the angle correct.

    However, the pallet spacing is incorrect: either the pallets hang up on the escape wheel teeth or they let it run free; there's no correct setting and it's clear that the pallets are either too close together or too far apart. I know that the pallets should span N + 1/2 escape-wheel teeth, where N is some integer, but they span precisely N teeth.

    There wasn't enough wear on the pallets to account for their improper spacing, so my assumption is that the pallets were re-surfaced one or more times in the past. Is there a rational way to (cringe) squeeze the pallets together a bit? The anchor is pretty hard, though I assume I could let it down enough to bend it without breaking. I know that this will mess up the impulse surface angles, but those could be adjusted. Or, should I add little shoes to the impulse surfaces, and if so, how thick?

    Failing that, which I'm good at, I suppose I can try my luck with one of the TimeSavers ST #2 anchors.

    I know we've been through some of this previously in this thread, but I'd appreciate any thoughts on the subject.

    Mark Kinsler

  15. #15
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Themas #2 escapement worn

    Here is a pic of how to do the impulse faces in case you don't have them. Draw a circle that is smaller than the distance of palettes. Draw a line a straight line that touches circle. In center of circle place arbor. You could use cardboard and press arbor into it so you can swing anchor around.

    Step 1 is the black impulse angle. Step two is the green impulse angle. They meet on opposite sides of the line but same side of circle. So one is over the line, one is under. Not sure which side of circle you would choose because I don't remember which way your ew turns.

    But one is impulse angle for left entrance palette the other side would be impulse angle for right entrance palette. Not soo hard to figure out. The picture below is for ew that turns right. So the entrance palette would be the black and the exit palette the green. Grind your impulse angles to same angle as the line.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by RJSoftware; 07-17-2017 at 04:20 PM.

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