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Thread: Fusee PW?

  1. #1

    Default Fusee PW?

    I'm afraid that timepieces of this vintage are an area in which I'm even more ignorant than most other areas of horology however I've had this one sitting around in a box for many years and I'd be interested to know something about it. I'm guessing mid-19th C. The movement looks like a work of art to me, and it's a pity the rest of the watch isn't. Any information gratefully received.
    Roy
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Roy Horrorlogic)

    It looks rather earlier than mid 19th century, I've never seen pillars like that, hopefully somebody who has will be along in a minute. I think you are in a different century though.

    edit> is that a K in the hallmarks, is that 1745?
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    While we wait, I would venture the dial is a later replacement, and there should be an outer case, do you have that too?
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  4. #4
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusee PW?

    Hi Roy,

    This is considerably older than mid-19th century. The case date letter appears to be a "K", which in the London office is either 1725 or 1805; the style of the movement is strongly in favour of the earlier date, but the case and dial design suggest later. The dial being so much larger than the movement reinforces the possibility that this is an old movement that's been sufficiently valued to have been "modernised" early in the 19th century, with the then fashionable larger dial with Arabic numerals, and this has necessitated the fitting of a larger case. Do you have the outer case, since this is the inner case only of a pair-case? Unfortunately the sponsor's mark in the case is very rubbed, so it's hard to identify the case maker.

    The very elaborate pillars and the "wings" on the balance cock, as well as the design of the strap-work on the cock table suggest a movement date of around 1730-40, and there are two Joseph Stephens listed in Britten's; father working 1713-1752, and son working 1739-1796. On this basis I'm inclined to attribute this to the father.

    It does have a few visible problems, notably the replacement of the diamond endstone and setting in the cock table with what looks like a steel ratchet wheel, and also some mis-matched and later screws.

    It's a fine old watch and worth keeping and restoring.

    [Edit] It doesn't look like the lower-case "k" for 1745 to me, and the dial being much larger than the movement, and its design, place the case in the 19th century.

    Regards,

    Graham
    Last edited by gmorse; 06-16-2017 at 01:38 PM.

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  5. #5

    Default Re: Fusee PW?

    Hi, it is lovely, I really like it; c1745 would not be far off the mark. I love the Name "Horrorlogic" I have had a few Horrorlogic moments myself over the years. The Pillars are from the period c1745? Having now looked at the Hallmarks I am going for 1725; (I am upgrading a Laptop at the same time as on the net to the NAWCC forum). Regards Ray
    Last edited by Omexa; 06-16-2017 at 01:35 PM.

  6. #6
    Registered user. Mikie T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Omexa)

    Really nice watch!
    The Tompion style regulator is an older design.
    Thanks for showing!

    Mike
    Elgin National Watch Company, Elgin, Illinois.... Founded 1864. Makers of Pocket Watches, Wrist Watches, Bomb Sights and Precision Instruments.

  7. #7
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Mikie T)

    Hi Mike,

    It is Joseph, and probably the father, (see post#4).

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: gmorse)

    Quote Originally Posted by gmorse View Post
    Hi Roy,

    This is considerably older than mid-19th century. The case date letter appears to be a "K", which in the London office is either 1725 or 1805; the style of the movement is strongly in favour of the earlier date, but the case and dial design suggest later. The dial being so much larger than the movement reinforces the possibility that this is an old movement that's been sufficiently valued to have been "modernised" early in the 19th century, with the then fashionable larger dial with Arabic numerals, and this has necessitated the fitting of a larger case. Do you have the outer case, since this is the inner case only of a pair-case? Unfortunately the sponsor's mark in the case is very rubbed, so it's hard to identify the case maker.

    The very elaborate pillars and the "wings" on the balance cock, as well as the design of the strap-work on the cock table suggest a movement date of around 1730-40, and there are two Joseph Stephens listed in Britten's; father working 1713-1752, and son working 1739-1796. On this basis I'm inclined to attribute this to the father.

    It does have a few visible problems, notably the replacement of the diamond endstone and setting in the cock table with what looks like a steel ratchet wheel, and also some mis-matched and later screws.

    It's a fine old watch and worth keeping and restoring.

    [Edit] It doesn't look like the lower-case "k" for 1745 to me, and the dial being much larger than the movement, and its design, place the case in the 19th century.

    Regards,

    Graham
    Ah, I discounted the later date due to the design of the movement. I did wonder about the size of the movement relative to the case but did not follow through. I saw a mudge at auction recently that had the same treatment but that had been put into a much later case, so it was more obvious. Went for very little money too, perhaps I should have bid, no way I could otherwise get a mudge.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    So much information and so quickly! Thanks to you all.
    However "mudge" Please translate.
    I'm curious about the idea of restoration for such a piece, not being exactly awash with money and more inclined to cull rather than invest, however I'd like some idea of what a restoration would entail on this piece, given that it has been changed so much since its creation. I don't have the outer case btw. Does anyone here know someone in the UK who would undertake such a job? And to what level would it be economically sensible to restore it?
    Roy

  10. #10

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Roy Horrorlogic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Horrorlogic View Post
    So much information and so quickly! Thanks to you all.
    However "mudge" Please translate.
    I'm curious about the idea of restoration for such a piece, not being exactly awash with money and more inclined to cull rather than invest, however I'd like some idea of what a restoration would entail on this piece, given that it has been changed so much since its creation. I don't have the outer case btw. Does anyone here know someone in the UK who would undertake such a job? And to what level would it be economically sensible to restore it?
    Roy
    Thomas Mudge, famous maker

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Mudge_(horologist)
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Roy Horrorlogic)

    Would it be of interest to anyone if I put up some tight macro shots of details of this movement?
    Roy

  12. #12
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Roy Horrorlogic)

    Hi Roy,
    ...However "mudge" Please translate...
    He means Thomas Mudge, apprenticed to George Graham and one of the finest watchmakers of the 18th century. He worked in partnership with William Dutton, another apprentice of Graham's, and together they continued Graham's business after his death. Thomas Mudge made what is accepted as the first detached lever escapement.

    Costs for restoration depend very much on what needs doing apart from the few visible problems and can only be estimated with any certainty as a result of a complete dismantling.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Roy Horrorlogic)

    Aha "Mudge". It was the lower case initial letter that got me. Not that I recalled the name anyway, shamefully. But as a successor to "Longitude" Harrison I can appreciate his significance. So this piece is actually very close to that seminal stage of timepiece development. Fascinating.
    Roy

  14. #14

    Default Re: Fusee PW? (By: Roy Horrorlogic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Horrorlogic View Post
    Aha "Mudge". It was the lower case initial letter that got me. Not that I recalled the name anyway, shamefully. But as a successor to "Longitude" Harrison I can appreciate his significance. So this piece is actually very close to that seminal stage of timepiece development. Fascinating.
    Roy
    Here is a link to the completed sale. As you can see a similar though much later conversion to fit a larger case.

    https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...d-a77000e2f9ca
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

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