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  1. #16

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: musicguy)

    B.W. Raymond Elgin Medal, serial #337064.
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  2. #17
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens

    I bought a lot at the final sale of the Time Museum assets at Sotheby's in New York. The lot included a tin with one of these medals. It was complete except for the movement. I will post another thread about the lot and the other items in it. Here is the medal and the rest of the package.

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    Last edited by Tom McIntyre; 08-12-2017 at 05:53 PM. Reason: lot not log
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
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  3. #18
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: Tom McIntyre)

    Very nice Tom, if the matching # movement from 1881 was there
    I would say it was spectacular.



    Rob

  4. #19
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    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: Tom McIntyre)

    Thanks for sharing, Tom. Very interesting how the medal fits in the tin. I'll have to check my tins to see if any are made with this indentation. Being key wind, it seem this would have been one of the earlier medals. Is that correct?

  5. #20

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: Tom McIntyre)

    Tom - Excellent find. Thanks for posting the images.

    #810915 is the second highest serial I have recorded for these Elgin Medals.

  6. #21

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: TimeAntiquarian)

    Here's a couple of examples, with serial numbers 641363 (with mvmt holder) and 680704.

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    Member Chapter 149

  7. #22

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens

    Something to consider (if you're otherwise bored) ... I've seen one of these medals indicating a 10s Dexter St. movement which got me thinking about the size of the medal. It appears the size of the medal takes into account a movement holder size down to about 6 size.

    These medals appear to have begun around the time of the 1874 Chicago Exposition, and share the same obverse of the Elgin 1874 Exposition medal. But the 6-size movements weren't sold until 1877 or so, starting with serial number 510001. So it would appear that the medal size chosen took into account the future 6 size offering. Does anyone know otherwise, or for certain?
    Member Chapter 149

  8. #23
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: Dave Chaplain)

    I should grab an 18 size KW movement and check, but I believe the movement fits into the loose cup with the dial up and then that assembly is put into the outer box with the medal in the bottom. It is likely there was some sort of paper pad between the inner container and the medal and perhaps another above the dial and below the lid.

    I am trying to get my movements in some semblance of order, so am sure I will run across at least 1 18S KW Elgin.
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  9. #24

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Chaplain View Post
    Something to consider (if you're otherwise bored) ... I've seen one of these medals indicating a 10s Dexter St. movement which got me thinking about the size of the medal. It appears the size of the medal takes into account a movement holder size down to about 6 size.

    These medals appear to have begun around the time of the 1874 Chicago Exposition, and share the same obverse of the Elgin 1874 Exposition medal. But the 6-size movements weren't sold until 1877 or so, starting with serial number 510001. So it would appear that the medal size chosen took into account the future 6 size offering. Does anyone know otherwise, or for certain?

    Intriguing theory.

    The diameter of each medal measures 30.0mm, which was a common token size at the time.

    The example I included within the original post of this thread would have accompanied an 8-Size Grade 65 movement (#596,444). Thus, we can conclude the medals were certainly shipped with the smaller product line, once offered to the market.

    Elgin introduced the 8-Size movement in 1878 (#510,001). It was not until late 1885 that the 6-Size movements were officially offered (though, there are experimental 6-Size batches as early as 1883). The medals were issued as late as 1881, so it is unlikely that any 6-Size movements were accompanied by the medal.

    I presume the 30.0mm size was a continuation from the 1874 Exposition medal rather than foresight into future production.

    I would be interested in seeing a shipping tin from one of the 8-Size movements during this period, if any are available.

  10. #25

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens

    Hi TimeAntiquarian,

    Wayne Schlitt's Elgin database shows the 510001 run as being produced in 1877, and as the 1st 6-size run. And that 10,000 were produced in 9 runs of 6-size in 1877, in grades 64, 65, 66, 67 and 71. Is that info incorrect?

    Dave
    Member Chapter 149

  11. #26

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Chaplain View Post
    Wayne Schlitt's Elgin database shows the 510001 run as being produced in 1877, and as the 1st 6-size run. And that 10,000 were produced in 9 runs of 6-size in 1877, in grades 64, 65, 66, 67 and 71. Is that info incorrect?
    Yes, indeed.
    Unless there is supporting documentation that I am not aware of, that info is incorrect.

  12. #27

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens

    Hi TimeAntiquarian,

    Other than Wayne's database there's not much documentation that I've found. Things could have changed between 1877 and 1887, but here's an 1887 ad from SF Meyers that at least lists the grades 65, 67 and 71 as being 6-size.

    ps. where are you getting your "8-size" information for the run starting 510,001?

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  13. #28

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens

    I may have found a source to the confusion (unless they were also incorrect) - Ehrhardt & Meggers from 1993 lists the grade 64 as 8s, but the grades 65, 66, 67 and 71 as 6s. Which if correct would make 1877 the start for the 8s grade 64, and also 1877 for the other 6s grades.

    Dave
    Member Chapter 149

  14. #29

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens

    And additionally, to add less clarity, the 1904 Elgin parts list has the grade 64 as "6 size" and "As Originally Made", as well as the grades 65, 66, 67 and 71! It could be that the grade 64 was made in both 6 and 8 sizes?

    So either Wayne's data is wrong and the grade 64 was 8s, or E&M's data is wrong and the grade 64 was 6s, or they were both right and the grade 64 was made in both sizes!

    And the 1904 Elgin parts lists claim no 8s watches! I'm going to go with "some 8s grade 64 watches were made" ...
    Last edited by Dave Chaplain; 08-14-2017 at 12:14 PM.
    Member Chapter 149

  15. #30

    Default Re: The Elgin Medal: Request for Known Specimens (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Chaplain View Post
    Other than Wayne's database there's not much documentation that I've found. Things could have changed between 1877 and 1887, but here's an 1887 ad from SF Meyers that at least lists the grades 65, 67 and 71 as being 6-size.
    Correct.

    By the end of 1887, all the 8s grades still in production had been transitioned to 6s, as is supported in the advertisement from the S.F. Myers catalog, including grades 65, 67, and 71.

    I am currently compiling a more extensive exploration on the topic, but the general dividing line for this size transition is at serial 2,000,000, with the exception of Grade 94 and a few early experimental batches.

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