Goal: $300, Received: $90.00 (30%) Contribute Now
Donate whatever you can or Join the 14,000 other NAWCC members for only $80 (plus $10 for hard copy publications). Check it out here.

Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    509

    Default Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193

    As I've said in the past, I really like the higher quality 12 size Elgin watches.
    It doesn't bother me (in the least) that they are not RR watches.

    I'm always looking at B W Raymonds for sale,
    and I came across a 1913 12s B W Raymond. For me, this is like
    "two birds with one stone", it's a B W Raymond and a 12s. Nice.

    It wasn't marked as such in the listing, but when I saw the jeweled barrel,
    I knew I was going to have to bid on it. There is just something that
    draws me in when I look at raised gold jeweled settings.
    In the last 3 seconds there were 7 bids. I was a little stressed
    because I put in a bid 50% higher in dollars than the current bid(with 4-5 seconds to go),
    and it came within a dollar of my high bid. There are many threads
    on this particular watch, I've listed a few below. It complements
    my 16s B.W. Raymond, and 18s B.W. Raymond.





    Thread: Elgin 12 size p.w. favotites

    Thread: Elgin Grade 193 Raymond

    Thread: Railroad Wannabee

    Thread: 12 Size 19 Jewel Elgin Grade 193...Restored



    Rob
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	s-l1600[5].jpg 
Views:	920 
Size:	258.4 KB 
ID:	343733   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Elgin-B.W.Raymond-189-12s.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	295.5 KB 
ID:	343734  
    Last edited by musicguy; 05-15-2017 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Boston. MA USA
    Posts
    19,069
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193 (By: musicguy)

    It is a nice example. It even has the flowers engraved on the balance cock that I use for an Elgin "quality check."

    I am going to try to post my Elgin Small Wonders later this week. I tagged this thread with small wonders also, so it will show up in the tag search.
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  3. #3

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193 (By: Tom McIntyre)

    Without a doubt, those are beautifully finished movements. I've got the HC Grade 189 that's similarly finished and a bit earlier. It is only marked "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co.", not BWR. It seems that your Grade 193 is a cut above, at least in the adjustments department. Ehrhardt shows the 189 as having 2 adjustments, where your 193 shows 3 adjustments. Interesting. Maybe that's what Tom's flowers denote, the extra adjustment? A new lesson for my day. Congrat's on snagging a nice one.

  4. #4
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    509

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193 (By: MrRoundel)

    where your 193 shows 3 adjustments
    I believe it's 5 positions, plus temp, and isochronism.



    Rob

  5. #5

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193

    Thank you for clarifying. I probably didn't spend sufficient time thinking about my comment. The gist of what I was saying is that your 193 seemed to have an additional adjustment, 2 versus 3 (Ehrhardt, not Roundel. ;-) ), relative to my 189 (Perhaps only temperature?), and that "Tom's flowers" are interesting. Cheers.
    Last edited by MrRoundel; 05-15-2017 at 02:44 PM. Reason: Attribution to Ehrhardt

  6. #6
    Registered user. Mikie T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Meridian, MS
    Posts
    420

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193 (By: MrRoundel)

    WOW... that is a real beauty.
    I need to find me one of those for my collection!

    Mike
    Elgin National Watch Company, Elgin, Illinois.... Founded 1864. Makers of Pocket Watches, Wrist Watches, Bomb Sights and Precision Instruments.

  7. #7
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    509

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRoundel View Post
    Without a doubt, those are beautifully finished movements.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie T View Post
    WOW... that is a real beauty.
    I need to find me one of those for my collection!
    Thanks!






    Here is a photo of the dial. It appears to be a metal double sunk dial.
    Sadly, it does have a plastic replacement crystal. After service
    replacing the crystal will be the first thing I do. These metal dials
    seem to get dirty.




    Rob
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	s-l1600.jpg 
Views:	48 
Size:	192.5 KB 
ID:	343765  

  8. #8
    Registered User Jerry Treiman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    4,941

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193 (By: musicguy)

    Here is an earlier grade 193, before they called it a B.W. Raymond. My movement is private-labeled for John Wanamaker, jewelers in Philadelphia and New York. The dial may not be original. The grade 189 hunter has its original dial.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	10852684m.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	198.8 KB 
ID:	343773Click image for larger version. 

Name:	10852684f.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	128.7 KB 
ID:	343774Click image for larger version. 

Name:	7411261m.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	216.0 KB 
ID:	343775Click image for larger version. 

Name:	7411261d.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	121.4 KB 
ID:	343776

    Catalog listings originally just said “adjusted to temperature, isochronism and positions”, but later catalogs specified adjustment to five positions. Here are listings from 1899 and 1908.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1899_Elg189-193.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	119.1 KB 
ID:	343778Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1908_Elg189-193.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	140.4 KB 
ID:	343777
    Jerry Treiman, NAWCC member since 1971
    Charter member of Pocket Horology Chapter 174

  9. #9
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    509

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193

    It's very nice that you have both open face, and hunter versions!

    RE: John Wanamaker
    John Wanamaker opened Wanamaker's
    it was the first department store in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
    and one of the first department stores in the United States. I interviewed
    over 30 yrs ago for a management training job there but never worked there.


    Rob

  10. #10

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193 (By: musicguy)

    Great information, Jerry. Thanks. BTW: I went back to musicguy's 193 link in his first post on this thread and saw that I had referred to my 189 as a 193. I can't edit that post but at least I got the grade right in this thread. So it looks like the 189 and 193 are comparable grades, just different orientations. Cool. I do know that it's a beauty, as all of these seem to be.

    My 189 also has a nice-looking metal dial, and looks pretty snazzy to my eye with the fine Breguet moon hands. I'll attach it so it too is in this thread. The one on the right, the OF, is a grade 237, of which there were only 2 runs to a total of 2,000. All it needs is a nice case. Someday...Cheers.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Elgin_193.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	238.0 KB 
ID:	343787   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Elgin_193b.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	228.2 KB 
ID:	343788   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	elg237b.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	89.7 KB 
ID:	343789  

  11. #11
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    509

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193

    the OF, is a grade 237, of which there were only 2 runs to a total of 2,000.
    All it needs is a nice case. Someday...Cheers.
    I also have a 237 that I bought without a case,
    but I had a 15j 12s in a nice case that I used
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	376.5 KB 
ID:	343790  

  12. #12

    Default Re: Small Wonders Elgin B W Raymond Grade 193 (By: musicguy)

    Yikes, I have to quit drinking during the day. (Kidding.) It's the 189 that needs the case. The 237 has a nice GF OF case that's probably original. Tough day for good communication.

Similar Threads

  1. Elgin B.W. Raymond grade 506
    By Fred Hansen in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-08-2017, 09:50 AM
  2. 1918 Elgin B.W. Raymond Grade 455 16s 19j
    By mlcampbell in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-10-2013, 07:21 AM
  3. Elgin B W. Raymond grade 70
    By Matt Harris in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-31-2012, 08:44 PM
  4. Elgin B.W. Raymond Grade 274 Rarity?
    By Fred Hansen in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-14-2010, 09:48 AM
  5. Elgin b.w.raymond grade 361
    By andrew66 in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-07-2009, 09:11 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •