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  1. #76
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Harris View Post
    Regulate How can I regulate this board
    Its a discussion board, and I am giving my opinion AND the reasons behind my opinions.

    Nothing to do with regulation. Stay on topic. Discuss the issue, not the person
    A
    This gave me the impression that you felt like you were the target of my post.

    There are a number of movements manufactured by asian companies that are just blatant clones of Valjoux or ETA movements. You don't take issue with that? Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no problem with someone copying technical solutions or even breaking patents so long as they don't pass them off as someone elses product?

    My point is that there appears to be two different thefts of intellectual property going on in the horological world, the first being name brand and decoration. Copyright infringement if you will. The second is patent infringement with replication of technical solutions. You only seem to take issue with the first. I'm thinking that if we are discussing fakes and theft of intellectual property the problem is more complex than you make it out to be. And maybe not as harmful as you make it out to be, considering how the Swiss industry has painted itself into a corner.

    If I make a Rolex Submariner clone and sell it with "Rolex" and "Submariner on the dial" I know your stance on it. What if I make a close to identical watch but put "Rollux" and "Submarine" on the dial? What if on the same watch I put "Karl" and "Submersible".
    I've now made a product in my own name using someone else's design. Do you see what I mean? Where do you draw the line?

  2. #77
    Registered User musicguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches

    When I was a kid I would see old movies where someone was given
    a piece of gold, and the guy would bite it to see if it was really gold.
    I remember asking my dad, what the heck is that guy doing with that
    coin in his mouth. I don't support/condone counterfeiting in any way
    but it's actually part of the economic system(and always has been), and is fostered by
    capitalism. When it's done correctly(sarcasm) they call it
    a new invention. But really it is based on the work of others
    in the past. They are standing on the shoulders of giants.
    Companies usually try to make a few small changes, and then
    brand it with their own name. Every advance in technology, science, medical
    etc. was part of someone else's intellectual property.
    It can be argued that advances only happen when
    we share information.

    But, when you sell a counterfeit product(with someone's actual company name), you are defrauding the customer.
    I know I would be very upset if someone called my clients and said they were me.


    Rob

  3. #78
    Registered user. Adam Harris's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: karlmansson)

    Quote Originally Posted by karlmansson View Post
    This gave me the impression that you felt like you were the target of my post.

    There are a number of movements manufactured by asian companies that are just blatant clones of Valjoux or ETA movements. You don't take issue with that? Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no problem with someone copying technical solutions or even breaking patents so long as they don't pass them off as someone elses product?

    My point is that there appears to be two different thefts of intellectual property going on in the horological world, the first being name brand and decoration. Copyright infringement if you will. The second is patent infringement with replication of technical solutions. You only seem to take issue with the first. I'm thinking that if we are discussing fakes and theft of intellectual property the problem is more complex than you make it out to be. And maybe not as harmful as you make it out to be, considering how the Swiss industry has painted itself into a corner.

    If I make a Rolex Submariner clone and sell it with "Rolex" and "Submariner on the dial" I know your stance on it. What if I make a close to identical watch but put "Rollux" and "Submarine" on the dial? What if on the same watch I put "Karl" and "Submersible".
    I've now made a product in my own name using someone else's design. Do you see what I mean? Where do you draw the line?
    I have studied ALL the Asian and SWISS clone manufacturers. Seagull is a HUGE company making watches, Miyota is owned by Citien
    They do NOT steal intellectual property or patents.
    They may closely resemble the functions but they are not identical - in most cases the jewel count is different, in every case shock protection is different and other price reduction changes.
    If they infringed ETA - believe me - Hayek Swatch group would be on them.
    Sellita makes under license.

    So movement manufacturers are NOT making counterfeit anything!

    You can make a HOMMAGE watch and name it Bolex, its NOT infringing anything, it may look like Rolex, but you are NOT stealing ant intellectual property

    But if you mark it ROLEX, then you are breaking the law.

    Dont blame Seagull or Citizen, blame the counterfeiters and the people that by buying, condone the stealling of others property
    Regards
    The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Winston Churchill
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  4. #79
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: musicguy)

    Quote Originally Posted by musicguy View Post

    But, when you sell a counterfeit product(with someone's actual company name), you are defrauding the customer.
    I know I would be very upset if someone called my clients and said they were me.


    Rob
    That is a very good distinction Rob! Which raises the question about different brandings though. "Swiss made", "Made in USA" etc. Some of those may be considered defrauding the customer as well. I know that some of those have gotten a revision lately.

    Elon Musk comes to mind when we are discussing developing new technology. He has made all his patents free to use, presumably because he realizes that without any competition, there won't be a large enough market for his ideas to take. That, and I'm pretty sure he just wants to see the world develop to a better and slightly cooler place. At least when it comes to tech.

    The whole centralization thing that the Swiss watch industry has been going through lately is kind of the opposite.

  5. #80
    Registered user. Adam Harris's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Harris View Post
    I have studied ALL the Asian and SWISS clone manufacturers. Seagull is a HUGE company making watches, Miyota is owned by Citien
    They do NOT steal intellectual property or patents.
    They may closely resemble the functions but they are not identical - in most cases the jewel count is different, in every case shock protection is different and other price reduction changes.
    If they infringed ETA - believe me - Hayek Swatch group would be on them.
    Sellita makes under license.

    So movement manufacturers are NOT making counterfeit anything!

    You can make a HOMMAGE watch and name it Bolex, its NOT infringing anything, it may look like Rolex, but you are NOT stealing ant intellectual property

    But if you mark it ROLEX, then you are breaking the law.

    Dont blame Seagull or Citizen, blame the counterfeiters and the people that by buying, condone the stealling of others property
    Regards
    Agreed
    The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Winston Churchill
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  6. #81
    NAWCC Communications Director
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: Adam Harris)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Harris View Post
    Take a look at the top of these forums (surprisingly) a banner add (better late than never) for my course!
    Actually, that banner ad has been up for months. I'm the one who put it up there.
    Markus Harris
    Communications Director (NAWCC)

  7. #82
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: Adam Harris)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Harris View Post
    I have studied ALL the Asian and SWISS clone manufacturers. Seagull is a HUGE company making watches, Miyota is owned by Citien
    They do NOT steal intellectual property or patents.
    They may closely resemble the functions but they are not identical - in most cases the jewel count is different, in every case shock protection is different and other price reduction changes.
    If they infringed ETA - believe me - Hayek Swatch group would be on them.
    Sellita makes under license.

    So movement manufacturers are NOT making counterfeit anything!

    You can make a HOMMAGE watch and name it Bolex, its NOT infringing anything, it may look like Rolex, but you are NOT stealing ant intellectual property

    But if you mark it ROLEX, then you are breaking the law.

    Dont blame Seagull or Citizen, blame the counterfeiters and the people that by buying, condone the stealling of others property
    Regards
    I feel like I'm not getting through.
    I'm not saying that they are infringing anything, I'm saying there is a lot of copying going on. "They may closely resemble functions...". Potato potato. What it comes down to in your description is lawmaking. From my perspective it's more to do with innovation. If you build your product on years of R&D from someone else, that isn't much different than claiming one thing to be another is it? I'm thinking of all the movements based on the old Unitas design or old Valjoux look-alikes.

    ETA themselves have been guilty of borderline stealing designs in the past as well. I remember an article of one of their associates that was cheated out of a contract and ETA keeping the design. I for one am more inclined to sympathize with the little guy here. The big companies can probably handel a few fakes. I'd be more alarmed with what kind of future they are making for watchmaking if I were you. If the giants of the industry are making a habit of stomping out the competition, who is to blame for the lack of innovation and a dwindling market?

  8. #83
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: karlmansson)

    Quote Originally Posted by karlmansson View Post
    This gave me the impression that you felt like you were the target of my post.

    There are a number of movements manufactured by asian companies that are just blatant clones of Valjoux or ETA movements. You don't take issue with that? Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no problem with someone copying technical solutions or even breaking patents so long as they don't pass them off as someone elses product?

    My point is that there appears to be two different thefts of intellectual property going on in the horological world, the first being name brand and decoration. Copyright infringement if you will. The second is patent infringement with replication of technical solutions. You only seem to take issue with the first. I'm thinking that if we are discussing fakes and theft of intellectual property the problem is more complex than you make it out to be. And maybe not as harmful as you make it out to be, considering how the Swiss industry has painted itself into a corner.

    If I make a Rolex Submariner clone and sell it with "Rolex" and "Submariner on the dial" I know your stance on it. What if I make a close to identical watch but put "Rollux" and "Submarine" on the dial? What if on the same watch I put "Karl" and "Submersible".
    I've now made a product in my own name using someone else's design. Do you see what I mean? Where do you draw the line?
    As I've pointed out in theis thread earlier. Such watches have been around for almost the entire history of horology. Mostly they were Swiss or German pin pallet watches with names that resembled original brand names. I doubt they could have been classed as theft of property but they were made with the intention of catching the market associated with the similar names.

  9. #84
    Registered user. Adam Harris's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: karlmansson)

    Quote Originally Posted by karlmansson View Post
    I feel like I'm not getting through.
    I'm not saying that they are infringing anything, I'm saying there is a lot of copying going on. "They may closely resemble functions...". Potato potato. What it comes down to in your description is lawmaking. From my perspective it's more to do with innovation. If you build your product on years of R&D from someone else, that isn't much different than claiming one thing to be another is it? I'm thinking of all the movements based on the old Unitas design or old Valjoux look-alikes.

    ETA themselves have been guilty of borderline stealing designs in the past as well. I remember an article of one of their associates that was cheated out of a contract and ETA keeping the design. I for one am more inclined to sympathize with the little guy here. The big companies can probably handel a few fakes. I'd be more alarmed with what kind of future they are making for watchmaking if I were you. If the giants of the industry are making a habit of stomping out the competition, who is to blame for the lack of innovation and a dwindling market?
    It does NOT matter whats INSIDE the watch

    The fact is placing ROLEX name or logo (or any other manufacturers marque depose) on the dial, case, crown or strap infringes their copyright.
    Its breaking the law. End of story.
    Its illegal to steal other peoples trademark or name!
    adam
    The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Winston Churchill
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  10. #85
    Registered user. Adam Harris's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: Markus Harris)

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Harris View Post
    Actually, that banner ad has been up for months. I'm the one who put it up there.
    My bad, my apologies
    A
    The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Winston Churchill
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  11. #86
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Harris View Post
    It does NOT matter whats INSIDE the watch
    adam
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

    I don't know if you are deliberately missing my point now. I'm not arguing
    that people producing and selling fake watches aren't breaking the law, I know they are and I'm not condoning what they are doing. But in the greater scheme of things, "fakes" have played and will continue playing an important role in the watch industry. I'm talking about what's inside the watch, not what's on the dial.

    I understand that you want to limit the discussion to brand infringement but I just think the matter is more complex. Is it so different from creating a dial that looks the same as a Rolex one to create a movement that is 99% the same as a well known, reputable manufacturer? Legalities aside I mean. Both are using another manufacturers work as selling points for your own product.

  12. #87
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches

    Quote Originally Posted by karlmansson View Post
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

    I don't know if you are deliberately missing my point now. I'm not arguing
    that people producing and selling fake watches aren't breaking the law, I know they are and I'm not condoning what they are doing. But in the greater scheme of things, "fakes" have played and will continue playing an important role in the watch industry. I'm talking about what's inside the watch, not what's on the dial.

    I understand that you want to limit the discussion to brand infringement but I just think the matter is more complex. Is it so different from creating a dial that looks the same as a Rolex one to create a movement that is 99% the same as a well known, reputable manufacturer? Legalities aside I mean. Both are using another manufacturers work as selling points for your own product.
    I am seriously interested and effected by organized crime, that apart from stealing $billions from the industry, the money is then used for other serious acts like drug trafficking!

    Fake/Counterfeit watches do absolutely NOTHING to enhance Horology! All it does is DESTROY the smaller manufacturers that can not compete with $200 watches.

    Counterfeiters do NOT design movement, but merely decorate them. They hold NO patents nor are they the Breguet's of Horology.

    Fake/Counterfeit watches are 100% illegal both inside, remembering the fakers mark the movements as well.

    Buying or wearing fakes is a "dis-service" to Horology.
    AND if it was not - then I guess we will see NAWCC condoning sellers of fakes at Nationals!!

    Its illegal, its morally wrong, and should not be condoned and the watches are JUNK!!

    A
    The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Winston Churchill
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  13. #88
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: Adam Harris)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Harris View Post
    I am seriously interested and effected by organized crime, that apart from stealing $billions from the industry, the money is then used for other serious acts like drug trafficking!

    Fake/Counterfeit watches do absolutely NOTHING to enhance Horology! All it does is DESTROY the smaller manufacturers that can not compete with $200 watches.

    Counterfeiters do NOT design movement, but merely decorate them. They hold NO patents nor are they the Breguet's of Horology.

    Fake/Counterfeit watches are 100% illegal both inside, remembering the fakers mark the movements as well.

    Buying or wearing fakes is a "dis-service" to Horology.
    AND if it was not - then I guess we will see NAWCC condoning sellers of fakes at Nationals!!

    Its illegal, its morally wrong, and should not be condoned and the watches are JUNK!!

    A
    I get the feeling from your insistent use of upper case letters and your continuing avoidance of the topic I'm trying to bring to your attention that you are not particularly interested in discussing this. I agree with you that counterfeiting is illegal, never said otherwise.

    I think I'll take my leave here.

    Best regards
    Karl

  14. #89
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches (By: karlmansson)

    So in post 34 Adam you really did that.
    One clock at a time. Kevin West
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  15. #90
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    Default Re: The Hidden Perils of Counterfeit Watches

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin W. View Post
    So in post 34 Adam you really did that.
    Did what? "smuggle watches"
    Hardly "smuggling" - they were on the top of my hand luggage!

    But even though they were being used for educational purposes - that (I) broke the law, and they were confiscated.

    Did I cry? Did I whinge? Did I shout "foul" play? Nope. I admitted they were fake and I took the pain!

    Big difference to wearing or condoning it, like many here.

    Now if I took EVERY logo (Marque Depose) off then I could bring any quantity of "homage" (watches that have identical appearance) into USA. That is NOT illegal.

    Sincerely
    Adam
    The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. Winston Churchill
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