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  1. #1
    Registered user. rstl99's Avatar
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    Default Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland

    A recent acquisition, which seemed to me possessing interest and charm.
    A fusée-lever watch from an Irish watch and clockmaker, Samuel Haynes, from Cork Ireland.
    Pretty watch with jewels and diamond endstone on the balance. Ticks nicely with a touch of oil here and there.
    The cock shape is unusual to my eye, I haven't yet come across one like it.
    There are some marks on the dial plate that perhaps someone could offer some clues on (movement maker in England?).
    I assume the watch dates from 1830-1840?

    From an online article dealing with the National Exhibition of 1852 that was held at Cork:

    "The largest turret clock exhibited, was that made by Mr. Samuel Haynes of Cork, who, some time since, made the clocks for the termini of the Cork and Eandon Railway. The exterior of the clock was remarkably handsome, and the movement has been considered, by competent judges, to be of a very superior kind. Mr. Haynes, junior, exhibited a beautiful evidence of his mechanical ability—a model clock, entirely cut out of ivory, with the exception of the spring and the centre pinion. The difficulty of this work will be at once understood by those who know how hard it is to adapt a substance of the kind to machinery, it being so brittle, and therefore so liable to break in those parts where greater delicacy is required. This was, however, overcome by skill and patience; and the beautiful little model tower clock kept time with the largest of its neighbours in the Exhibition."

    It seems to me that if Samuel Haynes' son (Samuel Junior) was able to make a model clock out of ivory, there were some excellent clock-watchmaker skills in that family!

    Anyway, it's an attractive movement that I'm glad to add to my humble little collection. Nice to have a timepiece from Ireland.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0001.JPG   IMG_0004.JPG   IMG_0006.JPG   IMG_0010.JPG   IMG_0013.JPG  

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland

    Interesting movement.. Appears the maker was trying to make a thinner movement by sinking the balance between plates.. The movememt is not the usual 3/4 plate seen during this period... Winding from the rear and hand setting from the front, and no dial plate indicates a modified full plate design.. The 1830's thru the 1840's was a period of all kinds of innovative design changes by Watchmaker's. Have you had a look at the escapement yet ? Possibly a Massey III or II roller table ? Or ? Appears the escapement has cap jewels, higher grade for this period.. Samuel Haynes is listed from Cork 1824..

  3. #3
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: rstl99)

    Hi Robert,

    The frame maker could be Thomas Scarisbrick of Prescot, and the "14" and "0" over "3" are the Lancashire gauge sizes. The layout is indeed unusual, especially the shape of the balance cock, and I should think John's estimate of dates is about right.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: gmorse)

    The source for the quote in my original post is:
    The Industrial Movement in Ireland: As Illustrated by the National Exhibition of 1852 - John Francis Maguire M.P., Mayor of Cork - 1853

    Graham: thanks for the information on gauge sizes and the suggestion of the Prescot maker (from the "T&S" inscription on the movement I assume). It's nice for a change for me to not only know the "maker" (or "finisher") but the actual movement maker of a watch. Usually the original maker is lost in anonymity.

    John: thanks for your informed observations and thoughts on the movement.

    Samuel Haynes (senior) seems to have operated from around 1820 and his son Samuel Cahir from 1840-1852 (Loomes). Their clock and watch shop was located at 51 St. Patrick's Street in Cork.

    I'm still educating myself on the different types of escapements, and don't have a keen eye to identify it from a side view between the plates. Eventually I'll take this (and my other fusée) watch movement apart for servicing and will better be able to identify the actual escapement used.

    You can notice from the photos that the hinge is bent, which I understand often happened when these movements were roughly separated from their cases during lean years, for value of gold or silver. Perhaps this movement was in a gold case, given it appears to be of a higher quality for the era. We'll never know.

  5. #5
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: rstl99)

    Hi Robert,

    ... Perhaps this movement was in a gold case, given it appears to be of a higher quality for the era...
    It could well have been, it is decent quality, there seem to be endstones to the escape and possibly also the lever.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: gmorse)

    Thank you Graham.
    By the way, I'm slowly making my way (reverse chronologically) with the back issues of AH available through my membership. I just printed "Watch Movement Making in Prescot" by Robert Kemp, which lists the names of Prescot makers based on their abbreviations on movements. Perhaps this was your source for your input above? Slowly I'm increasing my knowledge of this fascinating world of horology (English and elsewhere).
    Best regards,
    --Robert
    p.s. Kemp's book "The Englishman's Watch" is one of my favourites among the various books I've acquired in the last 6 months or so. So it's nice to come across an article of his, which sheds light for me on the rather murky subject of "Prescot makers".

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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: rstl99)

    A very similar movement by Brockbank and Atkins. It is housed in a silver case hallmarked for 1844 but I suspect that the case is not original to the movement as it has a different serial number stamped in.

    Although I have had this for around 20 years I have never dismantled the movement so can add little additional information other than that it is a standard English lever with table roller.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: DaveyG)

    How interesting Davey the photo of your similar movement. Indeed the cocks have a similar pointed end though the one on yours is a little fancier with an extra indentation. It may not be clear on the photos of mine which were taken when the watch was running, but the balance wheel on my Haynes is bimetallic and has adjustment screws.
    Based on my still rudimentary knowledge, would the choice of balance, escapement, and overall finishing be at the discretion of the finisher or "watchmaker" (Haynes in my case, Brockbank & Atkins in yours)? So the basic movement from Bristol would be similar in many ways, but the watchmaker would introduce distinct features of his own preference or choosing?
    Thank you.

  9. #9
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland

    Hi Robert,

    The details of the movement and its finishing would be specified by the commissioner of the work, Brockbank & Atkins or Haynes, as you say. The workshops in Prescot, (which is near Liverpool by the way, not Bristol), would supply movements in any state of finish required from "raw" frames with the trains planted but not pivoted, without escapements or jewelling, through to completely finished with the appropriate signatures engraved.

    Robert Kemp's article is indeed where I found the list of Prescot frame makers.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  10. #10
    Registered user. rstl99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: gmorse)

    Quote Originally Posted by gmorse View Post
    The details of the movement and its finishing would be specified by the commissioner of the work, Brockbank & Atkins or Haynes, as you say. The workshops in Prescot, (which is near Liverpool by the way, not Bristol), would supply movements in any state of finish required from "raw" frames with the trains planted but not pivoted, without escapements or jewelling, through to completely finished with the appropriate signatures engraved.

    Robert Kemp's article is indeed where I found the list of Prescot frame makers.
    Thanks Graham for that important insight which is useful to me.

    Yes, I mistakenly wrote Bristol when I probably meant Prescot (interesting that the roots of the name is "priest's cottage").
    Ok, so the "commissioner" could specify movements in various states of finish, and with choice of options. Obviously some "retailers" would simply get their name inscribed on a fully finished movement, and I suppose would then need to get a case fitted to the movement, dial, hands, etc., to come up with a finished watch ready for sale.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I always figured that some watchmakers/commissioners/retailers would obtain a less finished movement and finish it themselves in their own shop, using their own hard-acquired watchmaking skills during their long apprenticeship and tenures as journeymen.

    I suppose that for a particular specimen, it is very difficult if not impossible to figure out just where the Prescot maker's work ended, and what the finisher/watchmaker contributed to the final product. Not sure why that's so important to me, perhaps the fact that I like to have an idea (by the signature on the watch and any biographical information available) who made the watch tick at the end, and put the finishing touches on it before sending it out into the world (and eventually into my hands as temporary custodian). So for the movement that is the subject of this thread, I'll never know for certainty which parts are the handiwork of Thomas Scarisbrick or of Samuel Haynes (or son). Interesting.

    Cheers!
    --Robert

  11. #11
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: rstl99)

    Hi Robert,

    ..Maybe I'm wrong, but I always figured that some watchmakers/commissioners/retailers would obtain a less finished movement and finish it themselves in their own shop, using their own hard-acquired watchmaking skills during their long apprenticeship and tenures as journeymen...
    I think that's broadly true of the larger firms who could afford to run a workshop staffed with the necessary specialist craftsmen, (the trade was very segmented), who could take a "raw" frame and effectively rebuild it to their own standards. This applied to Frodsham, Barwise, Vulliamy and the like, but retailers in smaller towns would most probably have settled for completely finished watches. Very few of the "raw" frames have survived and provide a fascinating insight into production methods. If you search for "unfinished" on David Penney's website you'll find some examples.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: gmorse)

    I whipped the dial off of my B & A this afternoon. There are no markings on the dial plate other than the size (12 - 0) and the #2042 which is the same as that stamped in the case. So it would appear that B & A bought this movement in complete and cased - just to endorse Graham's comments above. I did take pictures which I will post later

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland

    Hi, these Pointy Type Balance Cocks were used on Verge movements as well. I just realized that the Date is on the movement AD1805; the replacement larger diameter Screw blocks out the "D". Regards Ray Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: Omexa)

    Picture as promised. The serial number is 2942 not 2042. In other respects it is very similar to yours beneath the dial rstl99. This has cap jewels top and bottom on the pallets, the lower escape wheel is jewelled but the upper is plain brass bush.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P1070640.jpg  

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    Default Re: Fusée-lever watch, from Samuel Haynes of Cork Ireland (By: Omexa)

    That is sweet Ray, a lot of work gone into the decoration there. I think that the significant point (ha ha) about the lever watches is the sunken balance rather than the pointy balance cock

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