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  1. #16
    Registered user. geo.ulrich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Rob P.)

    did you demagnetize?

  2. #17
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: geo.ulrich)

    Looks like it's bent at the stud. You said you took the spring off so you must have turned the boot off the pin. I use tweezers to turn the boot. Most flat springs have this arrangement. I think only overcoils have two pins.

    What I do is (with fully assembled) just reach in with needle and adjust near the stud. The regulator acts as the steady and the needle push bends at the regulation point. Then return the regulator to original position and examine that spring is in middle of boot and pin.

    Easy fix.

    RJ
    Good clocks always know the time, that's what they tell.

    Bad clocks get glued with macaroni, in Steampunk Hell.

    Ahh, the crunchy sound of victory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: RJSoftware)

    If there is no sign of a terminal curve having been formed at some point the chances that the spring is not original are even higher. It's kind of difficult to
    make a coil perfectly match the rest of the coil if you're not very good at adjusting springs. So it makes no sense that someone with those skills would first adjust the spring that way only to leave it like this. Seems to me
    that this could be a spring from another movement with a stud that fits this balance cock.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Paul Raposo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Raposo View Post
    I see now Rob. I honestly didn't understand what you meant but your pictures and explanation have helped. Looking at your pics makes me realize how bad my hairspring is. I'd like to know who worked on this watch before I bought it.
    It looks to me like you're going to have to pull the HS off the balance and re-shape it. At least it isn't mangled. I think you can get it reshaped to adjust and run right. Of all the HS's I've had to do this to, only one wound up with a good full curve for the adjuster. All the others were against a pin on one end or the other and I had to mess with them to get even a small adjusting range in the middle. They all run, but I wish I was better at shaping HS's than I am. Hopefully you are up to the task.

    If you get it reshaped and running, you may find that the HS is a replacement for that balance that is not the correct strength and which will not allow it to come to time. At that point you have a second issue. But that's easy to fix compared to reshaping the spring itself.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Rob P.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    It looks to me like you're going to have to pull the HS off the balance and re-shape it. At least it isn't mangled. I think you can get it reshaped to adjust and run right. Of all the HS's I've had to do this to, only one wound up with a good full curve for the adjuster. All the others were against a pin on one end or the other and I had to mess with them to get even a small adjusting range in the middle. They all run, but I wish I was better at shaping HS's than I am. Hopefully you are up to the task.

    If you get it reshaped and running, you may find that the HS is a replacement for that balance that is not the correct strength and which will not allow it to come to time. At that point you have a second issue. But that's easy to fix compared to reshaping the spring itself.

    Not sure I agree with that.
    If you do indeed have a replacement spring, in order for it to work as intended You'll have to shorten it. Provided that it is too long. That it is being compressed in the way you are decribing suggests that it is. A correctly formed terminal curve will only ADD to the diameter. So if it doesn't fit not, it won't fit later (this is of course provided you don't have a Breguet overcoil at hand).
    So really you need to vibrate the spring to find the correct length for it. This is by no means an easy task. If you only remove weight from the balance you will lose amplitude and lots of it. In production, the balance is matched to the spring in terms of dampening. A balance that is too light for the movement will behave differently even if you adjust the length of the spring to compensate.

    Then there is the issue of matching the pinning point at the collet to your vibrating point. The studding point for the balance cock is normally somewhere around 90-70 degrees from the vibrating point. There needs to be a certain angular relationship between the pinning point and the studding point for positional error to be kept to a minimum. The watch will be impossible to adjust or kept at a reasonable isochronism if not. Refer to Daniels "Watchmaking" forthe details please.

    It sounds like a non-original hairspring to me, considering the watch is running slow, and not fast as would be expected from at hairspring that looks like this.

    Best regards
    Karl

  6. #21
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center?

    If the watch is running slow and I see compression on one side and expansion on other then I would go with unfitted hairspring.

    This would be symptoms of a hairspring with too many coils. I did not notice you saying the movement was slow. So even if adjusting the coils to be symmetrical too slow is still too slow.

    BUT..!!!

    In your favor is slow being good thing. A hairspring that is too short is usually to fast and no way to restore what has been cut away (except cheating with super glue).

    If you have not vibrated a hairspring it can be a bit of a challenge. But the good thing is your close.

    Try not to cut, try to adjust and leave extra hanging in case you find you went too far. Cut after your absolutely sure.

    Now you don't have to buy any fancy tools or anything really. But it takes a bit more time than to use a vibrating tool.

    The vibrating tool allows you to pick any location along the hairspring body by a form of tweezer and then test the balance to see if it gyrates about the same speed as a similar balance wheel that has been timed to perfection.

    But observing the cost of the little devices may make you reconsider the poor mans option.

    Don't worry, where all brothers and some sisters here...!

    The following assumes watch is reasonably in beat.

    With the balance cock laying on backside, place the balance in jewel hole and wiggle balance a few times to establish where it's resting position hairspring and balance would be normally.

    Make a mark with fine tip marker or tiny razor scratch of where the hairspring stud (imaginary line) is on the bottom of the balance wheel -the underside. Mark the topside too. Use only marker at the top.

    Pull the hairspring pin at the terminal stud. Then pull about 1/4 turn through and repin. Unscrew the screw of the terminal and remove balance and hairspring from cock, turn the hairspring collet till new terminal location points to mark on top of balance wheel. Re-install.

    Since the regulation point is not too much distance from the terminal you can leave the boot open or not bother with the regulation until you get closer.

    Hopefully you have replacement pins. New pins make life much easier. And you don't have to prep them (file one side flat and cut length) as this stage is temporary.

    So for you because yours is going slow, the object is to reduce the hairspring number of coils/length. Doing so will speed up the escapement. But thing is you want to do it in a controlled manner and have reversible in case you go too far.

    In computer terms the process is like a binary search. But you have to be a bit more conservative. The binary search starts in middle, then results are either correct, too high, too low. If correct you win collect your money. If too high then go half way low. If too low then go half way high. Which ever direction gives better results is halved again toward that direction.

    The process is to reduce the number of steps to success. But in your case since you are close you don't need to take such drastic measures.

    I would start out by reducing a 1/4 turn and then observe the results.

    Repeat and repeat...
    Last edited by RJSoftware; 04-19-2017 at 10:00 PM.
    Good clocks always know the time, that's what they tell.

    Bad clocks get glued with macaroni, in Steampunk Hell.

    Ahh, the crunchy sound of victory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: RJSoftware)

    RJ's process is what I do except I use a timing machine. If the rate is too slow, shorten the HS (or reduce the weight of the balance). If too fast, you either change the HS or add weight.

    It takes 30 seconds to know what you have to do. It can take an hour or more to make the change. Then it's check again, make another change, check, change, etc. but you can get it right.

    In this case, until the HS is sorted out, we have no real idea whether it's correct or not.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Rob P.)

    A "dog leg" where the terminal curve ends here may be all you need. Two kinks in the spring that offsets the terminal curve from the rest of the spring.

    Just remember that for a hairspring to function correctly after changing the studding point you also need to change the pinning point at the collet. And thus take the loss of spring length at the center of the spring for making this adjustment into account when setting the length of the outer end. There used to be a very informative article on this by a guy in watch school but the images appear to be bad links now... Maybe you can read it and it makes sense: https://www.watchprozine.com/watchte...ings-/6112423/

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: karlmansson)

    Hey Karl.

    About altering the inner coils. I don't understand the need. When one initially installs a hairspring the center coils are cut to accommodate the collet with an initial spacing before the body of the hairspring starts.

    Seeing as how this initial setup is already done, why would you adjust the hairspring length by removing inner coils and re-pin at the collet?

    What is incorrect about re-studding the outer coil and rolling the collet to maintain beat?

    RJ

    Quote Originally Posted by karlmansson View Post
    A "dog leg" where the terminal curve ends here may be all you need. Two kinks in the spring that offsets the terminal curve from the rest of the spring.

    Just remember that for a hairspring to function correctly after changing the studding point you also need to change the pinning point at the collet. And thus take the loss of spring length at the center of the spring for making this adjustment into account when setting the length of the outer end. There used to be a very informative article on this by a guy in watch school but the images appear to be bad links now... Maybe you can read it and it makes sense: https://www.watchprozine.com/watchte...ings-/6112423/
    Good clocks always know the time, that's what they tell.

    Bad clocks get glued with macaroni, in Steampunk Hell.

    Ahh, the crunchy sound of victory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: RJSoftware)

    This only applies to a flat hairspring and not overcoil ones. The relation between the inner and outer pinning point is crucial for some resemblance of isochronism. When the watch is designed, an angular relation is chosen where the long and short arcs, within the amplitude delta that you can expect a watch to go through between windings, will be consistent in rate for the most common positions in which the watch is carried. If you alter the relationship a watch may run reliably on a full wind but as you check the watch on a timing machine as its on half wind, you'll find that positional error has increased, even though you adjusted it well at full wind.

    Again: see "Watchmaking" for a better and illustrated explanation.

    Best
    Karl

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: karlmansson)

    Is there a general rule for selecting the best position/pinning points to achieve most isochronism on the flat spring?

    I'm hoping your not going to go mathematically, but just in general location (crossing fingers you say yes -lol).

    Say for example we look at the hairspring in 360 degrees.

    Could it be as simple as where collet is pinned is same degree as where stud is pinned? Or within some allowable amount of degrees away?

    I have read on the over-coil bending and relation to it's form and position. It is involved and not sure how much of it I really believe of grave concern to me. Think I read in same article about how the flat hairspring suffers from shock from change of direction. Thing is for me, somewhere along the line I drop off from the theoretical into practical mechanical need to get it done today.

    It would go as instead of studying how more isochronism is achieved by various formation styles, the question skips ahead and ask what is the best over-coil form.

    But yep, sometimes no easy answer.

    RJ


    Quote Originally Posted by karlmansson View Post
    This only applies to a flat hairspring and not overcoil ones. The relation between the inner and outer pinning point is crucial for some resemblance of isochronism. When the watch is designed, an angular relation is chosen where the long and short arcs, within the amplitude delta that you can expect a watch to go through between windings, will be consistent in rate for the most common positions in which the watch is carried. If you alter the relationship a watch may run reliably on a full wind but as you check the watch on a timing machine as its on half wind, you'll find that positional error has increased, even though you adjusted it well at full wind.

    Again: see "Watchmaking" for a better and illustrated explanation.

    Best
    Karl
    Good clocks always know the time, that's what they tell.

    Bad clocks get glued with macaroni, in Steampunk Hell.

    Ahh, the crunchy sound of victory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: RJSoftware)

    If you have access to "Watchmaking", check the chapter on hairsprings. It will explain it better than I can do here, without pictures and graphs.

    As to if it's necessary: you'll only find what you are looking for. If you only test a watch in one state of wind you can adjust it well there. But for it to keep time OVER time you need a hairspring that is properly pinned.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: karlmansson)

    Ok, I have Daniels book "Watchmaking" I'll look it up and see if I can find what he says about trying to establish the best one can of isochronism on flat spring.
    Good clocks always know the time, that's what they tell.

    Bad clocks get glued with macaroni, in Steampunk Hell.

    Ahh, the crunchy sound of victory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center?

    Ok.

    It seems the best selection according to Daniels Watchmaking book on Lossier's pinning chart which is on page 338 is the picture 633b which has the collet pinned at 90 degrees ahead of terminal location.

    I take it that the graph in that picture has the smallest curve, hence the most steady.

    But then it refers to John Arnold using the graph of 633c which is pinned 270 degrees ahead of the terminal location.

    I don't know, what do you think?

    RJ
    Good clocks always know the time, that's what they tell.

    Bad clocks get glued with macaroni, in Steampunk Hell.

    Ahh, the crunchy sound of victory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: RJSoftware)

    Unless the difference is the direction of the coils or location of the roller jewel, what I would assume, for flat springs with no overcoil, is that the pinning point on the collet should be perpendicular to the final pinning point on the stud. Which point (90 or 270) on that perpendicular line probably depends on who designed the movement more than anythign else.

    I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves here. At this point all we know is that the HS is deformed.

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