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  1. #1
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Why is this hairspring off center?

    A Tudor cal 59. I've had the the balance out of the movement and took the wheel and spring off the bridge.

    The spring was the correct shape on the balance wheel with the coils evenly spaced. When I put them back on the bridge the spring was still the right shape.

    When I installed the bridge back into the movement the spring bunches up on one side and is spread out on the opposite side. The spring is flat when in the movement and running.

    The pallet fork doesn't sit between the banking pins when the movement is not running, but is off to one side. It starts on the first turn of the crown and runs but loses about 70 to 100 seconds per day dial up.

    I hope these pictures give a clear view of the spring.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center?

    It sounds like the first half coil of the hairspring is not shaped correctly.

    Remove the balance cock and wheel once more and turn it upside down. The balance should sit straight and you should be able to have it oscillate a few turns in this position. You should be able to see where the mis shape occurs.

    If you can not see the problem you might have to remove the hairspring from the balance and install it in the balance cock. Now the center of the hairspring should rest straight above the jewels. Also try the adjustment arm. The jewel should stay above the center during the full movement of the adjustment arm. Don't forget to verify that the hairspring rests in the middle of the adjustment "pins" during the full movement of the adjustment arm.

    The pallet fork doesn't sit between the banking pins
    This is most likely linked to the problem with the hairspring. Don't try to correct this untill you have the hairspring sorted out.

    EDIT:
    Having enlarged your last picture it actually looks like the hairspring is not fitted between the adjustment "pins". (It could be the angle and un-sharp picture.)
    Last edited by Skutt50; 04-17-2017 at 03:26 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Skutt50)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skutt50 View Post

    EDIT:
    Having enlarged your last picture it actually looks like the hairspring is not fitted between the adjustment "pins". (It could be the angle and un-sharp picture.)
    This. The hairspring is not between the pins on the rate adjuster.

  4. #4
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skutt50 View Post
    Having enlarged your last picture it actually looks like the hairspring is not fitted between the adjustment "pins". (It could be the angle and un-sharp picture.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    This. The hairspring is not between the pins on the rate adjuster.
    Quote Originally Posted by richiec View Post
    Just as Rob stated, it appears as if the spring goes inside of the regulator pins, remove the balance and CAREFULLY reinsert it between the pins and check again.
    It does appear in the picture that the coil isn't in the index but I can confirm that it is. It's a boot style index that must be turned to create an opening for the spring to slip out and I double checked it before turning the boot to close it.

    I'm wondering if the spring was either pinned too short or was too short to begin with and when the stud is put into the carrier it's pulling the spring and causing the bunching up.
    Last edited by Paul Raposo; 04-17-2017 at 05:18 PM.

  5. #5
    Registered User richiec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Rob P.)

    Just as Rob stated, it appears as if the spring goes inside of the regulator pins, remove the balance and CAREFULLY reinsert it between the pins and check again.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: richiec)

    I'm wondering if the spring was either pinned too short or was too short to begin with
    loses about 70 to 100 seconds per day
    Your regulator is set at FAST and you still loose time. This indicates that the hairspring is not too short but possibly too long!

    It does not take much to cause the "bunching up". E.g. a small slip with a screw driver could cause this. I still believe you have a mis-alignment in the outer coil probably between the stud and the regulator......
    Have you tried to move the regulator to see if the "bunching" changes or moves position?

  7. #7
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skutt50 View Post
    Your regulator is set at FAST and you still loose time. This indicates that the hairspring is not too short but possibly too long!
    Oh! I did not know that. Honestly I've always assumed when a spring looks like this it was too short. Learning something new everyday, thank you Skutt50

    Quote Originally Posted by Skutt50 View Post
    Have you tried to move the regulator to see if the "bunching" changes or moves position?
    That was actually the first thing I tried and the bunching remained the same.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Raposo View Post
    It does appear in the picture that the coil isn't in the index but I can confirm that it is. It's a boot style index that must be turned to create an opening for the spring to slip out and I double checked it before turning the boot to close it.
    It's not between the pins. Enlarge your pic #3 and you will see that the outer coil is inside the inner pin. You can't see between the pins but you CAN see that the coil is distorted at that point.

    Take the regulator off the balance cock and see if the coils return to correct position. It should just pop off with a tiny bit of pressure along with twisting a tool in the split in the ring. You'll have to remove the balance from the cock to put it back on or risk damaging/bending things but if you're positive it's in between the pins that will prove it or not. And will lead you to other possible places to look.

    Edited at add:

    I just opened the case on my Cal 59 because I thought the kink near the stud might be an issue. It's not. the kink is correct and should be there. However, I can clearly see by comparing mine with yours, that your terminal curve is being distorted right at the regulator pins.
    Last edited by Rob P.; 04-17-2017 at 10:25 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Rob P.)

    That was actually the first thing I tried and the bunching remained the same.
    This would indicate that the hairspring is OK between the stud and the regulator pins.
    It is further confirmed by Rob.P in his post #8 above. (There may well be an issue at the stud but it would not be my initial approach.)

    If this is correct and the kink is right at the regulator pins it appears (from your pictures) as if the hairspring has been bent outwards. Could this have occured when the balance cock was removed from the balance? Not unlikely!

    In such case the hairspring should be bent back a tiny bit. This will be a delicate job if done with the hairspring in the movement and you can easily over bend or damage the hairspring. Personally I would remove the hairspring and do the correction "on the desk". I would also at that time install the loose hairspring in the balance cock and verify that it is well centered as discussed earlier in this thread.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Paul Raposo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Raposo View Post
    Oh! I did not know that. Honestly I've always assumed when a spring looks like this it was too short. Learning something new everyday, thank you Skutt50
    .
    It all comes down to how the watch behaves. The frequency of the oscillator is determined by the relationship between spring and load. So either the balance is too heavy or the spring is too long/weak.

    Bunching up like this could be an effect of someone trying to fit a new spring that has too many turns. The spring would then appear to be well centered but as the stud is screwed in place, being the only fixed point of the spring apart from the collet, the coils on the other side will be pushed away.

    If the spring is original I would look at the first half coil where the spring leaves the stud. Or the "terminal curve" if you will. In particular the off set just where the spring leaves the stud and then the part that interacts with the regulator sweep. And as others have mentioned, double check that the spring is indeed between the regulator pins.

    But a spring shaped as the one you have SHOULD run fast. Everything points to it. Coils rubbing, increased friction at the pivots. There is a plethora of problems that can make a watch run fast but few that will make it run slow in every position. Check the balance for timing washers and you can maybe shed some light on whether the spring is original or not.

    Best
    Karl

  11. #11
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Rob P.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    It's not between the pins. Enlarge your pic #3 and you will see that the outer coil is inside the inner pin. You can't see between the pins but you CAN see that the coil is distorted at that point.
    There's actually only one pin. The spring is sitting between the wall of the boot and the index pin. I don't know if there are suppose to be two pins but there is only one on this particular movement and the spring is between that pin and the boot.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Paul Raposo)

    the spring is between that pin and the boot.
    This sounds correct, just does not show in your picture.

  13. #13
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Skutt50)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skutt50 View Post
    This sounds correct, just does not show in your picture.
    Yeah, I tried to get it clear but my those were the best I could do.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center?

    Maybe this will help. Pics of the hairspring and boot/pin on my 59.

    You can see that my terminal coil is not concentric with the other coils, it expands outward from about 7 o'clock on the pic. There is only 1 pin next to the boot but if the HS is inside that pin it will cause the coils to deflect like yours is doing. Double check. If it's in between, then I suspect the outer coil is too concentric. You'll need to pull the HS off the balance, put it on the cock and adjust to center the collet over the jewel. Check that the sweep of the adjuster doesn't change the centering.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Why is this hairspring off center? (By: Rob P.)

    I see now Rob. I honestly didn't understand what you meant but your pictures and explanation have helped. Looking at your pics makes me realize how bad my hairspring is. I'd like to know who worked on this watch before I bought it.

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