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  1. #16
    Registered user. gleber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: dickstorer)

    Wow, what a treat to wake up to! Lots of good advice and not too much scolding for not using the apparently more traditional approach of dealing with the arbor (for the record, that was the advice I received from Merrritt's but for some reason, I thought that would be more complicated since the arbors were not similar).

    The fit is as I mentioned near perfect. It will hold itself in place and when tested is true now. I guess I hadn't thought about how much heat distortion may occur, thinking that it would be somewhat balanced out.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I prefer to try to learn new skills and am willing to deal with the pains that mother experience can dish out. Thank you all for a great mental warm up for the good fight. So, I'm off to find some silver solder. Wish me luck. I'll report back.

    I'll place a note in the clock with a link to this thread. Suppose it will be there in a 100 years? (This thread, not the note!)

    Tom

  2. #17
    Registered user. gleber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: gleber)

    P.S. What does everyone think of just using gusset plates glued with JB weld or similar?

    The spokes in the notches will hold the rotational stress. The only thing I need to prevent is the axial movement of the wheel falling off of the spokes sideways. That stress should be low, but if it did fail that way, it would be catastrophic as mentioned.

    It would not be as pretty as a nice solder job, but would it be bad enough to get me into the hall of shame?

    Tom

  3. #18

    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: gleber)

    Quote Originally Posted by gleber View Post
    I had a machinist friend cut off the old damaged gear and cut out the hub of the donor. It's a near perfect fit.

    Tom
    If you 'had a machinist' cut apart the wheels for you then likely you do not have a lathe with a machinable jaws chuck to attempt the repair Jerry suggested. If we assume that your machinist friend did an accurate job, I would first fit the gear ring to the spokes and place the assembly between the clock plates and spin it to check if it runs true..... this assumes that he machined it to a snug fit so it won't fall apart. If it is too loose to stay together then it probably isn't precise enough to run true. If you can verify that it will run true with the spokes in the notches, then you won't need to re-machine anything before 'soldering'. I agree with Jerry, soft solder is not likely to yield a good long-term outcome. If you don't have the equipment to do high temperature silver soldering, perhaps the best plan might be to look for another donor wheel to fit to the original arbor.

    RC

    P.S. What does everyone think of just using gusset plates glued with JB weld or similar?
    JB-Weld is great but probably not for this application. Fish plates or gussets, as you say, would not look so good but if you do use them, then solder them when you solder the spokes. That is if you use a lower temperature solder such as 95/5 or low temp silver solder. As for your HOS ticket, not sure about that. It sure wont be an invisible repair.
    Last edited by R. Croswell; 04-15-2017 at 08:58 AM.

  4. #19
    Registered user. gleber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: R. Croswell)

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Croswell View Post
    ...I would first fit the gear ring to the spokes and place the assembly between the clock plates and spin it to check if it runs true..... this assumes that he machined it to a snug fit so it won't fall apart. ...
    I tested it along with T2 in the plates, and it stays together and runs true. In the process, I actually found that T2 must have taken a hit when it let go the first time, because it's arbor is bent slightly and will need a little truing itself.

    Tom

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: gleber)

    Well Tom I would say that your machinist friend did a nice job. With the tight joints it is a great candidate for silver brazing.

    If you don't have the equipment for high temperature brazing, then I would go with some sort of fish plates, sistered across the joints. You could make them all the same shape, perhaps "T" shaped and soft solder it all together. Now make sure that anything that you solder on the sides of the wheel won't interfere with mating lantern pinion shrouds, etc. Good soldering techniques will make a barely visible joint. I don't mind seeing a small fillet around the sistered pieces.

    Of course I am a "form follows function guy", and I don't care if my repairs are visible.

    David
    David S

  6. #21

    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: David S)

    I was in our local Ace hardware store yesterday, and they had a dual oxygen/gas setup for $80.00! That's 1/3 the price that I paid for mine! It uses two of the small gas and oxygen tanks, which are perfect for hard soldering. I also found hard silver solder on Ebay that is very thin and will be great for small work. Of course you can get it it larger quantities at the local welding store too.
    A man with a clock always knows the time. A man with two clocks is never sure.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: shutterbug)

    I use Tix for essentially all brass repairs. That's why I recommended it. With the fit Tom shows in the picture, particularly since he has tested it in the clock, the technique I outlined would be simple, straightforward, nearly foolproof, and permanent. I use Tix in mounting individual tooth slugs or multi-tooth segments and to make the brass or brass-and-steel tools I use in my lathe. You don't have to braze, you don't have to use silver solder, you don't have to hard solder, you don't have to laser weld. The spokes fit in the notches to bear the radial driving forces, so the solder is there primarily to keep things aligned. If this was a lap joint it might be cause for concern, but for a mortise and tenon joint with the force applied radially, Tix is the ticket.

    Don't knock it until you've experimented with it.

    Tom, if you don't have Tix, nearly any rosin-core solder will work. The higher the lead content the better in this instance to lower the melting point. Just follow the same technique with the chip/slivers of solder right on the joint and heat from behind to wick the solder in, then wash the rosin-core flux off thoroughly.

    Glen

  8. #23

    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: glenhead)

    I agree that Tix is easy to use and useful in low stress situations. But any soft solder used for high torque situations is asking for trouble, IMHO.
    A man with a clock always knows the time. A man with two clocks is never sure.

  9. #24

    Default Re: Solder Help Request

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker Dwight View Post
    60/40 is not a ridged solder. The vary thing that makes it good for
    electronics makes it particularly bad for jobs like this.
    For electronics, you want something that doesn't fracture with
    heat cycling. That means it isn't that stiff.
    There are some relatively low temperature silver solders.
    These are still relatively strong solders. I recall building slot cars
    with some stuff that would bend the brass before breaking.
    Tinker Dwight
    Okay then go with a silver-bearing solder, using the same technique. I like the technique, whatever the solder.

    I agree that Tix is easy to use and useful in low stress situations. But any soft solder used for high torque situations is asking for trouble, IMHO.
    The spokes are keyed into the ring, so there's not a lot of torque stress on the joints.

    Is what I think.
    1. Check out the Repair Hints & How-To's forum. You may find your answer there.

  10. #25

    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: bangster)

    Keep in mind that in an open spring setup the wheel often comes in contact with the side of the spring as indicated by wear marks on spokes etc. so there is some side loading. TIX is about the weakest solder mentioned. It is great for some thing but I've had it fail under stress. Not saying that it won't work if the spokes fit the slots really well. I think in this case the high temp silver brazing is probably the standard against which everything else is measured.

    RC

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: R. Croswell)

    Tom has already stated that he likes trying things and learning from things that don't go well. So it sounds like he would like to make this repair, not someone else.

    If he doesn't have silver brazing equipment, and isn't going to invest in it for this job, then being the great wheel and being safe, I would go with his fish plate suggestion. There are indeed many adhesives that would work. As suggested JB weld may work and can be cleaned up, but he has soldering skills, so I would use soft solder for the entire job and include re-enforcing pieces.

    The wheel as is, is not original, so that ship has sailed. If at some point in the future someone doesn't like the pieces sistered on there, then they can remove them and execute a different repair or make a new wheel.

    Let us know what you decide, Tom.

    David
    David S

  12. #27
    Registered user. gleber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: David S)

    I have an Oxy/Acetylene set up in the garage with a fine tip (as well as cutting tip). I've done some steel brazing with the fine tip for some other small projects, so I think I should be okay. I was mainly concerned about what type of solder for three reasons. I haven't soldered brass before (other than plumbing), I don't think my typical electrical or plumbing solder is strong enough (which seems to be confirmed here), and I don't want to melt the wheel (which I think I would if I used my current brazing technique and filler).

    I really do appreciate reading all these comments. It's great for learning and should help prevent learning "the hard way."

    I'll update you all with my progress once I get started.

    Tom

  13. #28

    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: gleber)

    Chop up the remainder of the donor wheel & practice soldering pieces of that together. They're both the same material & thickness. When your happy with the results, move on to the one that matters.
    The man who knows how to make it work will always have a job, The man who knows why it makes it work will always be his boss.

  14. #29
    Registered user. MartinM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: BLKBEARD)

    Quote Originally Posted by BLKBEARD View Post
    Chop up the remainder of the donor wheel & practice soldering pieces of that together. They're both the same material & thickness. When your happy with the results, move on to the one that matters.
    What he said.
    Living life at eight beats per minute.

  15. #30

    Default Re: Solder Help Request (By: gleber)

    Quote Originally Posted by gleber View Post
    I have an Oxy/Acetylene set up in the garage with a fine tip (as well as cutting tip). I've done some steel brazing with the fine tip for some other small projects, so I think I should be okay. I was mainly concerned about what type of solder for three reasons. I haven't soldered brass before (other than plumbing), I don't think my typical electrical or plumbing solder is strong enough (which seems to be confirmed here), and I don't want to melt the wheel (which I think I would if I used my current brazing technique and filler).

    Tom
    You are correct to be concerned about melting the brass gear. Requires the right equipment and a degree of skill. There is also a concern that the gear teeth may become annealed and 'soft' being so close to the joint. A lower temperature solder has an advantage when it comes to both of these concerns.

    RC

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