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  1. #46
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Tom Huber)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Huber View Post
    Hi Allen, To replace your palette fork, it must come from a 23j Vanguard. the 23J fork has conical pivots to go in a cap jeweled pivot. The 845 and the 21J forks have open pivot jewels and have cylindrical pivots. they will not interchange.

    tom
    Tom, it gets more confusing as the early 21Jewel Crescent St (low 7M serial) also had conical pivots and cap jewels on the palette fork and somewhere between 7M and 7.5M the pallet shape was changed, possibly linked to the design change that Jerry has pointed out. From the measurements of my 'spares' it wasn't just the shape of the fork but also the height the pallet sits on the spindle

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  2. #47
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Jerry Treiman)

    Thanks all,

    The advice is invaluable and it now looks like I am on the hunt --long term--for a fork and escape wheel for my 1892 Vanguard 23j. I understand that these are now very difficult parts to obtain.

    I take it that I will experience the same difficulty if I am to try to restore the 1892, 17j Riverside movement I have just acquired which is missing its fork and escape wheel. Or with this model will I have a wider choice of available replacement parts than the 23j Vanguard? That is any of the other 17 or 19 j versions of this model.

    I bought the riverside movement along with another 19j Vanguard movement, which is also missing its fork and escape wheel, as I wanted the Regulator arm off the Vanguard to finish another project. The Riverside was a bonus and if not restorable (which would be a pitty) I am more than content to have it as a "gap" filler in my 1892 display box.

    Allan

  3. #48
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: AllanB)

    Glad to see you're looking on the positive side Allan The movements aren't complete but they are quite nice and I've known a few people over the years who collected movements not for parts, but for their collection as you intend to do with those movements.

    My parts arrived today and I've got the regulator arm on the bridge.

    I was a bit frustrated with myself as I couldn't get the hairspring stud back onto the bridge. It took about an hour before I realized I didn't have the screw out far enough for the stud to pass it. After moving the screw out a bit more the stud went home correctly and everything worked out.

    The index pins were a bit close together so I opened them slightly and they appear to be about 1 1/2 spring thickness apart and all looks good.

    I'm always worried about doing anything around the hairspring so I'm happy this went well. The arm isn't the right colour but it is the correct size and it works so I'm very pleased

    The case was heavily brassed so I used silver polish to clean it up. Since I don't plan to carry this watch I'm going to leave it in the original case. It's a nice swing out dustproof case with a threaded nut holding washers underneath.

    It's wound set and running now and I'm going to see how the time keeping is.

    A big thank you to everyone who helped me with this project

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  4. #49
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892!

    Looking at my pictures I just noticed the meantime screws are screwed out about half way. Will this effect time keeping?

    I'm going to let the movement run for 24 hours dial up and see how the time keeping is.
    Last edited by Paul Raposo; 04-13-2017 at 08:34 PM.

  5. #50

    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Paul Raposo)

    The meantime screws are part of the "adjusted" procedure the watch went through at the factory. Do not alter them unless you know exactly what your doing.
    You say the regulator arm is the wrong colour, I've only seen ones the same colour as yours.
    As I understand it the "index pins" as you call them should be parallel. As it is it may bind when adjusted.

  6. #51
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: rolandantrobus)

    Hi rolandantrobus, thanks for your post

    From what I've seen online the Vanguard watches had gold washed arms rather than nickle. Some even had gold washed screws.

    Doing some research here on the forum I found the meantime screws at each end of the balance arms can be adjusted for rate, so I decided to screw both in all the way.

    Before I did, the movement was losing 13 seconds per hour dial up with the regulator centered. After moving the screws in, over the last 10 hours the movement has gained 30 seconds in total.

    I think because the regulator arm was lost whoever serviced the watch last opened up the screws to try and get some kind of regulation on the balance wheel. With the index pins now controlling the spring it was running far too slow.

    A further option would be to open the screws one half turn which is suppose to take off 2.5 seconds per hour, but that's not something I'd want to do before having the movement serviced, since I don't know the service history.

    I'm going to check it after 24 hours, then leave it dial down and then pendant up and see how the time keeping is.

    Here's a pic of the gold arm from the fantastic Model 92 website:

    http://www.model92.com/


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  7. #52
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Paul Raposo)

    By the way, great close up photos.
    Good luck dialing it in.


    Rob

  8. #53
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: musicguy)

    Quote Originally Posted by musicguy View Post
    By the way, great close up photos. Good luck dialing it in. Rob
    Thanks Rob We've had some good sun around here so I took advantage of it.

  9. #54
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Paul Raposo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Raposo View Post
    I think because the regulator arm was lost whoever serviced the watch last opened up the screws to try and get some kind of regulation on the balance wheel. With the index pins now controlling the spring it was running far too slow.
    Paul, without the regulator arm your watch would have been running at it's slowest, so if anyone did anything to change the speed then they would have had to have screwed the meantime screws inwards to speed it up, not outwards. So I doubt that this would be the reason for your watch running slow.

    I think the gold-washing of regulator/screws etc probably came and went during different periods of manufacture so I wouldn't worry too much about your regulator just yet, wait until you can compare your Vanguard with other similar spec ones from the same batch... even then I don't think you could be 100% sure.

  10. #55
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Mark UK)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark UK View Post
    Paul, without the regulator arm your watch would have been running at it's slowest, so if anyone did anything to change the speed then they would have had to have screwed the meantime screws inwards to speed it up, not outwards. So I doubt that this would be the reason for your watch running slow.
    I didn't know that. I wound the watch before I bought it to make sure it was running and it was running very fast dial up which I assumed was because there was no regulator.

  11. #56
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Paul Raposo)

    It may have been the hairspring is set just a little high on the balance staff, or a slight worn balance staff pivot, or the hairspring stud was slightly high on the balance cock, all of these could cause the hairspring to rub on the underside of the balance cock when dial up. You have fitted the regulator and likely moved the hairspring stud so this might not be so obvious now but worth checking that you have good clearance. A service should identify other issues such as dirty/damaged pivots/jewels etc.

  12. #57
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892!

    Thought I'd post an update regarding the timing on this one.

    Over 24 hours each position:
    DU +54 secs
    DD +72 secs

    But over 12 hours:
    PU -178 secs

    That last one concerned me. I checked the spring and wheel and they weren't rubbing on the bridge or plate, the spring was inside the index pins and moving between the two equally and the balance motion was very good. I don't have a timing machine so I can't give specific amplitudes or errors.

    I was worried about a bent pivot so I removed the balance and took the wheel off the bridge and fortunately both pivots are straight. The jewels are good too and not cracked. I also made sure the width between the index pins was two spring coils and they are parallel.

    I took a few pictures to show the spring and wheel. I noticed one of the screws on the wheel is screwed in further than it's mate on the other side. That screw is on the bottom of the wheel in the PU position. I haven't touched them and posted the pics here for some opinions.

    By the way, all of this is just to make there is nothing terribly wrong with the movement. I don't know the service history and don't plan to carry the watch, but I would like to have it serviced later this year.

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  13. #58
    Registered User Jerry Treiman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Paul Raposo)

    The exaggerated error in the pendant up position suggests to me a problem with the poise. It looks like the second and third timing screws away from balance arm may not be matched which could cause such a problem.
    Jerry Treiman, NAWCC member since 1971
    Charter member of Pocket Horology Chapter 174

  14. #59
    Registered user. Paul Raposo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Picked up a Waltham Vanguard 1892! (By: Jerry Treiman)

    Thank you Jerry. I don't have a posing stand or frankly the knowledge of how to use one correctly. I will have to save this for my watchmaker. Hopefully it's something he can sort out, but that will have to be later this year.
    Last edited by Paul Raposo; 04-17-2017 at 06:56 PM.

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