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  1. #1

    Default how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase?

    I have a centre seconds longcase without the second hand. The hour hand fits on a square as usual the minute hand fits over a hollow tube and is pinned.

    I assume the idea is that the second hand would have a pipe fitted to it and would push onto the end of the escapewheel arbour as it would have done with a conventional second hand but how would the minute hand be secured then?

    There are also two dogs sticking out, not sure what they do, originally I thought that was another pin going all the way through but they are separate pieces leaving the middle clear.


    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  2. #2
    Registered user. THTanner's Avatar
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    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Not sure about the minute hand, but do the dogs work the calendar?

    Quote Originally Posted by novicetimekeeper View Post
    I have a centre seconds longcase without the second hand. The hour hand fits on a square as usual the minute hand fits over a hollow tube and is pinned.

    I assume the idea is that the second hand would have a pipe fitted to it and would push onto the end of the escapewheel arbour as it would have done with a conventional second hand but how would the minute hand be secured then?

    There are also two dogs sticking out, not sure what they do, originally I thought that was another pin going all the way through but they are separate pieces leaving the middle clear.


    If you are not fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. Vince Lombardi

  3. #3

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: THTanner)

    no, far too far in for the date ring which is a 31 tooth internal tooth. The post for that wheel is seen under the snail but the wheel is missing. It would engage with the teeth under the snail and have one of those cantilever flags to clear the snail when rotating.

    The date wheel itself is present and the rollers, I've just finished resilvering and cleaning the dial. I'll put it back together as is and get it running, it will have to wait in the queue to get finished properly and have the second hand back. Not in my skillset but just wondered how it worked.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  4. #4

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: THTanner)

    Does this help?

    http://www.clockmakers.co.uk/

    Can you post some side views and top & bottom?
    The man who knows how to make it work will always have a job, The man who knows why it makes it work will always be his boss.

  5. #5

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: BLKBEARD)

    Quote Originally Posted by BLKBEARD View Post
    Does this help?

    http://www.clockmakers.co.uk/

    Can you post some side views and top & bottom?
    Don't think so, he has a pic of a centre sweep date but I can't expand the pic.

    Will go take some more shots for you
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  6. #6

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: BLKBEARD)

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC_0051 (2).jpg   DSC_0052 (1).jpg   DSC_0053 (1).jpg   DSC_0054 (2).jpg  
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  7. #7

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Nick,

    I've seen a variety of methods of securing the hands. C-shaped clips, square rings(?) pins, ... If I see your pictures right, yours uses pins for both the hour and the minute.

    The second hand sometimes has a thread in the tube/arbor. The mass of the second hand is hard to control with the constant starting/stopping. The thread's intent is to ensure keeping the hand secured instead of it working itself loose.

    The other choice, would be a well fitted tapered tube to tapered arbor, using its friction to secure it, as morse tapers or other tapers are used.

    Ralph

  8. #8

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: Ralph)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    Nick,

    I've seen a variety of methods of securing the hands. C-shaped clips, square rings(?) pins, ... If I see your pictures right, yours uses pins for both the hour and the minute.

    The second hand sometimes has a thread in the tube/arbor. The mass of the second hand is hard to control with the constant starting/stopping. The thread's intent is to ensure keeping the hand secured instead of it working itself loose.

    The other choice, would be a well fitted tapered tube to tapered arbor, using its friction to secure it, as morse tapers or other tapers are used.

    Ralph
    This currently has a square for the hour and a pin to retain the minute, but the latter is a modification as there is no method to attach the second hand.

    That was why I asked, because whatever was used originally is no longer present so I don't know how it would have looked, nor how the second hand was attached. All I know is that without the pin there is a clear tube down to the end of the escape wheel arbour which is why I assumed it had a pipe like a normal second hand. ( I will see if there is a thread)

    I have seen them in use, they do wobble alarmingly especially on a recoil escapement as with this one. I never expected to own one so didn't take much notice of the attachment method.

    I will put it all back together as is and it can go off to somebody else's house where it will stay, my collection is now too big for one house!
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  9. #9
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Is the dial original you think? I'm thinking the two dogs where to push a lever action to advance the moon portion that yours does not have.

    RJ
    The bitter the challenge, the juicy the conquest.
    Conquest -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

  10. #10

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: RJSoftware)

    no, I don't think it is, but then if not there is no way of knowing if it were an arched dial originally.

    I've never seen this as a way of advancing a subsidiary, and I don't think it would work very well. It would need very precise alignment, and it would mean giving the subsidiary a push every 6 hours.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  11. #11

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Quote Originally Posted by novicetimekeeper View Post
    This currently has a square for the hour and a pin to retain the minute, but the latter is a modification as there is no method to attach the second hand.

    That was why I asked, because whatever was used originally is no longer present so I don't know how it would have looked, nor how the second hand was attached. All I know is that without the pin there is a clear tube down to the end of the escape wheel arbour which is why I assumed it had a pipe like a normal second hand. ( I will see if there is a thread)

    I have seen them in use, they do wobble alarmingly especially on a recoil escapement as with this one. I never expected to own one so didn't take much notice of the attachment method.

    I will put it all back together as is and it can go off to somebody else's house where it will stay, my collection is now too big for one house!

    What retains the hour hand... I thought I saw pin holes at the corner of the square boss.?? The same with the minute. ??

    Some clocks have a bushing that screws in the minute tube and the seconds arbor is supported coming through it... but I don't even see your seconds arbor.

    Ralph

  12. #12

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: Ralph)

    The hour hand is held on by the minute hand being fixed above it.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  13. #13
    Registered user. RJSoftware's Avatar
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    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    I've seen similar for a moon dial on very old Grandfather clock I restored. The dial had a lever with a paw like finger at the top so that when the lever was swung out (you could do it by finger) it advanced the moon dial one click of a ratchet gear.

    I was going to say an AM PM flag but more like 4 clicks per day for moon advancement.

    My National Time Recorder (old punch in/out work time-clock) is suppose to have an AM/PM and day of the week. Someone stripped it out but I plan to make one. (Thanks to Tom Tanner for supplying pics of his).

    On my grandfather it does 1 time every twelve hours. I suppose 2 times per 12 hours might be possible.

    RJ
    The bitter the challenge, the juicy the conquest.
    Conquest -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGaVUApDVuY

  14. #14

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Quote Originally Posted by novicetimekeeper View Post
    The hour hand is held on by the minute hand being fixed above it.

    That's strange. Is it my imagination on seeing a tiny pin holes in the corners of the square??



    Ralph
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails nick.jpg  

  15. #15

    Default Re: how are the hands secured on a centre seconds longcase? (By: Ralph)

    definitely imagination. Just had a close look under a bright light just a standard square to take the hour. The pin for the minute is a mod to my mind, can't see it being anything else it prevents any sort of second hand working. Clearly it is a centre seconds movement, or else the escape wheel wouldn't be where it is so the fixing for the minute is a modification.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

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