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  1. #16

    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Burghart View Post
    Thanks you everyone for your input. I really appreciate the information and insights into these clocks.

    A healthy dose of skepticism is always a good idea

    I had some time this morning to take the movement out and look the clock over. I am attaching a number of photos that may help.

    I summarized my thoughts below about the case, movement, dial and hands.

    The case:
    The case is not dovetailed. It looks correct, with no signs of the door having been added. The hinges look like they have always been there. The upper glass is old, but touched up and I would say original. The mirror is old, but is a later replacement. Both glasses are held in with wood blocks, and there is no evidence of putty being removed.
    The paint is not really white, but an off white greenish color. It was definitely applied around the movement?
    The paint is applied behind the label, but not much oxidation behind it. Could it have been removed when the painted was applied and put back?

    The movement:
    It is unusual, with no makers mark on the back.
    The size is small, only 3 1/2" tall.
    Where is mounts in the case all the holes line up, including the recesses for the pivots.
    The movement is currently held in with a single screw from the back. This may have been done later. There are 4, what appear to be locating holes and two mounting holes, in the back plate and the backboard. These lineup perfectly and one of the locating holes has a pin still in it.
    My guess is the movement was originally held in by 2 screws, one on top and one on the bottom. There are worn out screw holes in the case that correspond to the larger holes in the movement back. At some point a new hole was drilled for the single screw closer to the center. This could be when the locating holes and pins got added?
    There are a number of holes along the top and bottom of where the movement sits. Again a guess, they tried to keep the movement from twisting.
    Speculating: The movement mounting holes got worn, and someone added a center screw threaded into the back plate (looks newer). The then movement twists over time, lacking the base usually found in a banjo case. Someone uses pins or nails along the top and bottom to try and stop the twisting. This doesn't work, they get fed up, and drill 4 holes to hold the movement still.
    All the holes make sense with relation to the movement, which I believe is original to the case.

    The dial:

    The dial has cut outs on the back for the rails, crutch and suspension spring/rod. Looks old and correct to the case. I see no evidence that a metal dial would have been used. No extra holes on the rails etc. The dial fits very well on the case and aligns with the movement.

    The hands:

    The hands fit perfectly, and are one of the best parts on the clock. A unique style, and very attractive.

    There have been some not great repairs/modifications done over the years, but an attractive and unique example of the style.
    Thanks. This is just the info and critical thinking I was hoping for.

    Man, someone really went nuts with that white/greenish paint later in the clock's life. That sort of thing is off-putting for any antique. But, we've seen that with gold paint and clocks, too.

    Any holes on the top of the door? Sometimes these little mirrors were hung from the top. That would be the one additional area I would check. I've attached pix of the top rails of 2 mirrors that once were hung from it to provide an idea of what to look for.

    What do people think about the use of unspoked wheels?

    I do feel more comfortable, with reservations, that I can climb on board with the notion that this little clock is probably a nice find that slipped through the cracks at a Skinner Discovery Auction! Well done.

    Enjoy your clock! It is sweet.

    RM
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  2. #17
    Registered User Jim DuBois's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas? (By: rmarkowitz1_cee4a1)

    Regards wheels not crossed out...they do occur from time to time in period clocks. Here is an example of one that was a very strange mirror clock. The holes in the front plate held the dial, like would be found in a tall clock or Mass shelf clock. The second movement with the fall off strike is also a mirror clock movement, crossed out wheels obviously. I include it just for the sake of provoking discussions, both this and the other movement are suggestive of the wide range of innovation seen in some mirror clocks and having solid wheels in Jim's clock seems intriguing but correct IMO.
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  3. #18
    Registered User Jim Burghart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas?

    George, I am not sure why they would paint the inside of the case. I know from working with wood it helps to finish both sides to prevent warping, but here the back is unfinished on the outside?
    Some one told me once, and I am not sure about the accuracy, that some early wood works clocks had a red wash inside because it was used as a base for the finish, and the inside and outside got the base coat, and the final finishing only to the outside. I'm a bit skeptical about that.


    RM, the top of the mirror does not have any holes. There is a bent over nail above the weight that is probably the original hanger for the pulley, but is broken off inside.

    I suspect there was only a single pulley originally. I strung a weight and the clock started right off. The two pulley arrangement is not pretty.
    Any idea what the weight should look like. I just grabbed one off my pile that fit.

    I will experiment with pulley location and size to see how it might work with just one. I don't want to add to the number of holes, but I think I can get something to work where the original hanger was that will look more appropriate.

    Jim, thanks for the movement photos. very nice and rare pieces.

    I have had very good luck with Skinners discovery auctions. A bit if risk, but it has paid off more often that not. I bought a tall case clock at the same sale. It is an English oak case that had a wood dial? I thought hey, worth a shot. Turns out the movement is an early American movement made in Mass with pierced brass plates. My next project

    Jim
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  4. #19
    Registered User Jim Burghart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas?

    Oh, I forgot.

    One correction. The paint does not appear under the label. The paint was applied very carefully around the remaining pieces.


    And one other item of note. The winding arbor has been trimmed down where it passes through the front plate. This was done to make room for the hour gear to rotate. If it was not narrowed it would hit the gear? Has anyone seen this done before?

    This is seeming less and less like a movement that would have been made in any quantity.
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  5. #20
    Registered User Jim Burghart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas? (By: Jim Burghart)

    I rearranged the pulley. The old wire came out easily, and I reused a bit that was there and ran it up and over like staple. Works perfectly in it's original location, the weight falls correctly and the cord is winding on to the winding drum smoothly. There is even more power to the movement and a much improved strong beat.

    Sometimes the way it was is originally is best, why mess with it.


    I am going to let it run for a while, then pull it apart for a proper cleaning.
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  6. #21

    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Burghart View Post
    George, I am not sure why they would paint the inside of the case. I know from working with wood it helps to finish both sides to prevent warping, but here the back is unfinished on the outside?
    Some one told me once, and I am not sure about the accuracy, that some early wood works clocks had a red wash inside because it was used as a base for the finish, and the inside and outside got the base coat, and the final finishing only to the outside. I'm a bit skeptical about that.


    RM, the top of the mirror does not have any holes. There is a bent over nail above the weight that is probably the original hanger for the pulley, but is broken off inside.

    I suspect there was only a single pulley originally. I strung a weight and the clock started right off. The two pulley arrangement is not pretty.
    Any idea what the weight should look like. I just grabbed one off my pile that fit.

    I will experiment with pulley location and size to see how it might work with just one. I don't want to add to the number of holes, but I think I can get something to work where the original hanger was that will look more appropriate.

    Jim, thanks for the movement photos. very nice and rare pieces.

    I have had very good luck with Skinners discovery auctions. A bit if risk, but it has paid off more often that not. I bought a tall case clock at the same sale. It is an English oak case that had a wood dial? I thought hey, worth a shot. Turns out the movement is an early American movement made in Mass with pierced brass plates. My next project

    Jim
    Lookin' better all the time!

    This posting has been wonderful. I think you have managed to dispel many ?'s raised when the clock first appeared in RAN.

    Also, the inquiries and responses have lead to a very nice public record about an interesting and not often encountered clock and maker.

    All a service to the horological community.

    I wish I had your luck at Skinner's.

    I seem to over pay or get stomped by the competition.

    Enjoy!

    RM

  7. #22
    Registered User Jim Burghart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas? (By: rmarkowitz1_cee4a1)

    Thanks for all information.

    I am posting a few more pictures.

    One of the hour wheel in relation to the winding arbor.

    The others are what I will probably end up leaving as the weight / pulley arrangement. With the second pulley gone, the other weight was to much. I had an odd weight that seems to run the clock, and doesn't hit the sides or back. It shouldn't damage anything as it runs down. I have had a few clocks that had weights that were to big, and they scraped up the insides of the case over time.

    I found a plain style bob that fits the clock better than the fancy bob I had tried first.

    Now to consider having the dial re-painted.
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  8. #23

    Default Re: Just picked up a smaller size New Hampshire Mirror, any ideas? (By: Jim Burghart)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Burghart View Post
    Thanks for all information.

    I am posting a few more pictures.

    One of the hour wheel in relation to the winding arbor.

    The others are what I will probably end up leaving as the weight / pulley arrangement. With the second pulley gone, the other weight was to much. I had an odd weight that seems to run the clock, and doesn't hit the sides or back. It shouldn't damage anything as it runs down. I have had a few clocks that had weights that were to big, and they scraped up the insides of the case over time.

    I found a plain style bob that fits the clock better than the fancy bob I had tried first.

    Now to consider having the dial re-painted.
    I suspect the dial was repainted by the same Rembrandt that executed all of the other painting done to the clock.

    Wonder if there's the remains of the original dial surface under the current one?

    Might be able to have the current one carefully removed to reveal what's underneath?

    RM

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