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  1. #31
    Registered user. Kevin W.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Send the clock to me, and then no more worries.
    One clock at a time. Kevin West
    http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB/

  2. #32

    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: Kevin W.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin W. View Post
    Send the clock to me, and then no more worries.
    Same here, but with my luck the thing would set off some package scanner and it would arrive with a squad of paranoid federal agents ready to defuse a nuclear bomb and arrest me!

    It isn't the science (or lack of same) that usually motivates lawmakers but rather who's constituents will have an opportunity to profit by their actions. Most of them, and many regular people as well, simple do not understand all they know about such things. I have a friend who has smoked ever since he was a kid. he is about 77 now until last month he refused to believe the 'science' about the dangers of smoking..........he started chemo this past week for lung cancer. The facts are what they are, not always what we believe they are, or what we wish they were. When radium dials were being made we know what happened with extreme exposure, but people generally didn't live as long then so in all probability those that might have developed symptoms years or decades later from small exposures would likely have died of something else first. The direct science is that we do have is old and with radium dials no longer in used by most of the world, it would be difficult to impossible to establish a control group and track them for 50 or 60 years. So we have to extrapolate what might be the risks based on known dangers of radiation generally. My doctor tells me that the pre-cancer skin 'spots' I occasionally must have removed were from excessive sun exposure when I was much younger. So for those of us over 70, if radium dial exposure causes us to get cancer 30 years from now, so what? All about risk assessment.

    RC

  3. #33
    Registered user. roughbarked's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: novicetimekeeper)

    As a matter of interest, looking around in my old workshop today I came across a small cardboard box with one of these clocks disassembled inside. I didn't shake the box and sniff the contents but I am sure that the box and its contents along with a lot of similar have been in the shed for thirty years and none of the mice that made a godawful mess in there died of radiation poisoning. I had to use other means to dispense with them.

    On a different tangent, simply breathing the air in the outside environment of my garden gave me a microbaterium infection otherwise described as atypical tuberculosis. It is in the soil everywhere in the world. The only reason everyone in the world hasn't died from that is because they have an immune system.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: R. Croswell)

    Quote Originally Posted by R. Croswell View Post
    So for those of us over 70, if radium dial exposure causes us to get cancer 30 years from now, so what? All about risk assessment.

    Is this a clock you're giving to your grandkids?

    Your other comment reminded me of the phrase: "Science doesn't care what you believe."

    cheers!

  5. #35
    Registered user. roughbarked's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock

    Science already knows that it is in industrial proportions that causes people to suffer and die from such things. The wife of a worker who spends all day cutting asbestos sheets on a factory floor is more likely to die from breathing asbestos fibres than others who also breathe asbestos fibres all day as a part of their environment. Children who play on asbestos dumps also are likely to suffer the same fate.

    As for what we are giving our grandkids, Have a look around you. A lot more children are dying from swallowing lithium battery button cells than have ever died from licking some old clock hands. Millions of people suffer from all sorts of maladies as a result of our impact on the enviroment from modern agriculture. The fallout from nuclear testing around the world, the wastes from places like the Chernobyl and Fukishima disasters, maybe three miile island?

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: glenhead)

    Quote Originally Posted by glenhead View Post
    The general public is at roughly the same level of risk from a radium clock dial as from a Sonic-Size order of fries. Go ahead, yeah, be obtuse and parse that sentence - it doesn't change the fact.
    Glen
    Thanks for making my point, Glen.

    I thought the discussion here was about disassembling and repairing a clock. Does your sentence refer to risk associated with disassembling a clock or just having the clock sit on a shelf? Your statement is very succinct and definitive, which I assume is based on research. I am always trying to learn and I would very much appreciate if you would cite the source of this information so I can expand my knowledge of the subject.
    Dave Diel

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: dad1891)

    There is not one documented case of cancer being caused by the acrylamide generated when cooking french fries. That is a fact.

    People have been repairing watches and clocks with radium on the dials and hands for nearly one hundred years. This activity results in incidental contact with radium-based paint. There are millions of timepieces and other items in general circulation that have radium-based paint somewhere. Despite this proliferation, there is not one documented case of the incidental contact with radium-based paint causing cancer in a person who repairs watches or clocks. That is a fact. There are also no documented cases of the general public developing cancers because of exposure to radium-based paint in consumer items. That is a fact.

    Zero = zero. That is a fact. The same number of people have died from french fry cancer as have died from a cancer caused by being in proximity to the radium on a watch or clock. That appears to be a fact. Therefore, taking the documented cases as evidence, "The general public is at roughly the same level of risk from a radium clock dial as from a Sonic-Size order of fries." ( Perhaps you were pointing out that overindulgence in french fries does, in fact, have a higher propensity for damage because of complications from obesity. If that is the case, please accept my apologies for misunderstanding.)

    In this instance, the complete lack of evidence is evidence in itself. Perhaps my calling either of the above sentences "facts" is indeed out of ignorance; perhaps such cases have been documented, and such documentation is simply unavailable. However, in today's world of "ohmygawd, radiation" and "ohmygawd, we have to tell everyone everything", you can bet your bottom bippy that if radium had been shown to be the cause of a single case of cancer in the groups mentioned in this post it would show up in a simple Google search, or that it would at least be locatable in a deep scholarly search. If you are more successful than I in finding such documentation, I will rescind my statements and apologize.

    Yes, this started off as a simple "what's wrong with my clock" posting. Someone somewhere early on in the thread dragged it off into "ohmygawd, radiation, FLEE", then started belittling reasonable disagreement with his viewpoint, and away we went.

    Glen

  8. #38

    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: roughbarked)

    Quote Originally Posted by roughbarked View Post
    I am sure that the box and its contents along with a lot of similar have been in the shed for thirty years and none of the mice that made a godawful mess in there died of radiation poisoning. I had to use other means to dispense with them.

    you don't that it didn't kill any of them, nor do you know that the ones who hung out in that box didn't have serious medical issues.

    i had a friend who made speaker cabinets for sound companies. once the boxes were made he would cover them in industrial strength short nap carpet... we called it, coincidentally, 'mouse fur', because that's what it looked like... using contact cement.

    i never thought he had enough ventilation in his shop, and in fact he died in his late thirties, his body riddled with cancer.

    my mom was on a federal commission investigating electromagnetic fields and how they affected human tissue... although there were no definitive answers, everyone (except the industries involved) agreed that 'prudent avoidance' was called for.

    in the case of radiation, everyone gets to make their own choices. mine is to err on the side of minimizing risk... short AND long term.
    i collect antique clocks because i get all that extra time...

  9. #39
    Registered user. roughbarked's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: smike)

    It is the rats that would have had the issues, because they got in and ate the mice and each other.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: GregS)

    Quote Originally Posted by GregS View Post
    "Science doesn't care what you believe."
    I love it!

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: R. Croswell)

    Regardless of the potential risk, I still feel it is wise to have
    some method of determining when you've done a reasonably
    good job of cleaning up after working on one of these clock.
    I'd covered because I have one of those pocket dosimeters
    left over from Chernobyl. I'd the simple electrometer, I mentioned,
    are easy enough to create.
    Tinker Dwight

  12. #42

    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: Tinker Dwight)

    you can make a simple sort of GM tube with a single darlington pair as an amplifier and then measure the ionisation with a multimeter. I have used the circuit to make ionisation chambers but it would work as a GM tube too.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Quote Originally Posted by novicetimekeeper View Post
    you can make a simple sort of GM tube with a single darlington pair as an amplifier and then measure the ionisation with a multimeter. I have used the circuit to make ionisation chambers but it would work as a GM tube too.
    There are some YouTube videos for these as well.
    You can't see individual clicks like a GM tube but
    you can use it to determine significant radiation.
    The ground is constantly outgassing radon gas.
    It breaks into a number of other radioactive elements
    that are both biologically active and short lived ( minutes, hours and days ).
    One can collect such from the heater filter and see
    if you have significant radon with such a simple instrument.
    Tinker Dwight

  14. #44

    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: Tinker Dwight)

    It's radon we use in the ionisation chambers to measure decay. We get the radon from thoriated gas mantles that I keep in wash bottles to puff into the chambers. Works remarkably well at low cost, and at low enough activity to allow safe handling by students.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Waltham Aircraft Clock (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Quote Originally Posted by novicetimekeeper View Post
    you can make a simple sort of GM tube with a single darlington pair as an amplifier and then measure the ionisation with a multimeter.

    yeah, that's what I was thinking… use a single darlington pair… was just talking about that this morning with the little woman, over breakfast.

    You guys know too much… It's really scary :-)
    i collect antique clocks because i get all that extra time...

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