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  1. #16

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: gmorse)

    Graham - The reference is to a letter by George Foster in the previous volume (AH 17/01 Autumn 1987). I am yet to go through it as I work backwards through AH. Foster refers to previous correspondence in 1966, before Jagger (1979). George Foster address was Christchurch, New Zealand.

    John

  2. #17
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Matthews)

    Hi John,

    Mr. Foster's letter is in Vol. 5 no. 4, and a response by George Daniels is in Vol.5 no. 5.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  3. #18

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: gmorse)

    Graham – thank-you for the references.

    The letters of George Foster and related correspondence in AH extending back to 1966, identify a number of Savage examples, but, with only limited descriptions and without photographs, I don't think it is possible to be absolutely certain which category they belong. I note that Daniels suggested that Foster might submit photographs of the watches he described, but I found no evidence that this happened.

    The letter of Daniels is also of note as he makes this somewhat scathing observation:

    Prompted by Mr. Foster's letter I visited the Royal Society of Arts to read the letter written by Savage to the Society and describing his Detached Escapement. It is recorded in Vol. 40 of 1822 and merely describes a double roller escapement invented by Robin twenty-three years earlier.”

    For the record here is a list of the watches described as having Savage escapements; for which the exact nature of the escapements is not clear to me.

    Unverified Savage Lever Escapements.

    ANONYMOUS #31495 1816 (George Foster AH Autumn 1987)
    BARRAUD & LUND Cornhill London #2/4173 c1840 (George Foster AH Autumn 1987)
    BARRAUD & LUND Cornhill London #2/4379 1845 (Tom McIntyre)
    BARRAUD & LUNDS 41 Cornhill London #2/9993 c1875 (Tom McIntyre)
    BROCKBANK & ATKINS #8787 1840 (M R Gibbons AH Spring 1988)
    FINER & NOWLAND London #3299 c1820 (M R Gibbons AH Spring 1988)
    FINER & NOWLAND London #4260 c1830 (George Foster AH Autumn 1987)
    GARDNER 65 High Street, Belfast 1818 (George Foster AH Autumn 1987)
    GRIMDALE & JOHNSON London #6653 1824 (M R Gibbons AH Spring 1988)
    MADDEFORD C. Theale Berkshire #1841 1840 (M R Gibbons AH Spring 1988);
    RADFORD William Leeds #5788 1814 (George Foster AH Autumn 1987)
    WEBSTER Cornhill London #4133, c1829 (George Foster AH Autumn 1987)
    WILSON Wm Southampton Street. Strand, London #1056 1816 (Giuseppe Brusa AH Dec 1966)

    My search through AH has identified three examples where the escapement can be categorised and I added these to the appropriate lists.

    Savage Two Pin Lever Escapement

    FINER & NOWLAND London #4166 1825 (Paul Tuck AH Spring 1999 Sotheby's auction 3 Oct1996)

    Standard Lever Escapement with Dovetail Jewel (Dovetail Escapement)

    GOWLAND James? London #1063 1841 (Paul Tuck AH March 2001 Phillips auction Sept 1998)
    RENTZSCH S 2 George Street St James Square London 1827 (Camerer Cuss AH Dec 1966)

    At the beginning of one of his letters (AH Spring 1989), Paul Tuck indicates that he is preparing a paper on George Savage. “I was interested in the recent correspondence concerning the Savage two-pin escapement, as I am in the process of compiling an article describing some aspects of Savage's work.” I have not been able to find a record of this. If anyone can be direct me to such a publication, it would be appreciated.

    John

  4. #19

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Matthews)

    John, I commend you on your research... are you looking for any Savage 2 pin escapements? I have, a gold 2 pin, by Morris Tobias # 2951. This a a later series serial number from the late 1840's to mid 1850's.. It is housed in a hallmarked Sterling case for 1854.. the movement is also engraved "Made for Lowell & Senter Portland Maine, interestingly I also had # 2977, which was also a gold 2 pin.. Movement engraved as this one... It was housed in American Coun Silver case, very large.
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  5. #20

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Pavlik)

    John my appreciation for your comment and for posting information on the two Tobias Savage 2-pins.

    Savage Two Pin Lever Escapement

    TOBIAS Morris London #2951 1854 (John Pavlik)
    TOBIAS Morris London #2977 (John Pavlik)

    To answer your question, when I started researching these 'non-standard' levers, I really had little idea where it would take me. From David Penney's descriptions and comments from Graham, in particular, I should have realised that it was not going to be easy to search out examples of these movements with sufficient detail to categorise them. Going through Jagger's lists made this very clear. So what I now have is lists of watches, dominated by examples from David Penney's site supplemented by examples from this forum, where it has been possible to categorise, together with an every growing list of watches, described as Savage 2-pin, but with insufficient detail to allocate them with any degree of certainty.

    So yes, descriptions and photographs of escapements which have been examined and can be assigned with confidence to any of the categories, would be most welcome. In my limited experience, such data is rather thin on the ground. I would particularly appeal to those forum members who service watches to add examples providing owners have no objection.

    As far as the examples I listed from Jagger, in the absence any further information, I propose to place them all in the unverified list, with the three exceptions below, to which I have added a note of explanation.

    Savage Two Pin Lever Escapement

    BARRAUD & LUND Cornhill London #2/9138 (Jagger Supplement) - 'true Savage two-pin escapement'

    Standard Lever Escapement with Dovetail Jewel (Dovetail Escapement)

    BARRAUDS Cornhill London #2/2018 (Jagger Supplement) - 'lever with pincer-shaped fork'
    BARRAUD & LUNDS 41 Cornhill London #3/1256 (Jagger Supplement) – 'double roller & trapezoidal pin'

    To add to the unverified examples, I have these taken from auction results:

    BOND J T Leeds 1848 (Gardiner Houlgate 23 Feb 2012)
    CARTER John Tooley Street, London #2687 (Gardiner Houlgate 20 Feb 2013)
    DEBOIS Dan London #292 1854 (Gardiner Houlgate 21 May 2014)
    JACKSON Abm Castle Street Liverpool #9213 (Gardiner Houlgate 20 Feb 3013)
    LITHERLAND DAVIES & CO Liverpool #8480 1815 (Skinner auction 1 May 2010)
    LITHERLAND WHITESIDE & CO Liverpool #5404 (Gardiner Houlgate 28 Oct 2015)
    VULLIAMY Benjamin Lewis London #mzxz 1840 (Gardiner Houlgate 30 Oct 2013)
    WRIGHT Wm London #1452 1853 (Gardiner Houlgate 3 June 2015)

    John

  6. #21

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Matthews)

    This morning I have taken photographs of the Savage 2 pin and the standard 2 pin lever mechanisms that I have and I thought it would be useful to post them side by side for comparison. Both are working mechanisms, as received, whose cases have no doubt been melted down.

    The Savage is by William Birch of Fenchurch Street. His workbooks were deposited with the library of the Clockmaker's Company and now form part of the London archives – see ‘The Business Records of Turner and Birch…’ by Alan C Davies, Antiquarian Horology, Autumn 1988, Vol 17, page 478. I attach a copy of the entry for the watch, which is dated October 18, 1858. It identifies that the watch was housed in a plain gold case, made for a Mr Stibbard and sold for 25 guineas. The various elements of the manufacturing process, the workmen involved and the costs are recorded. The workbook uses a code which is described by Davies, using the code I calculated that the cost of the work was ~£16.

    The standard 2-pin is estimated to be of the same age and is by Cozens, Matthews & Thorpe, whom David Penny describes as follows,
    Cozens, Matthews & Thorpe, important but now little known London based wholesale watch manufacturers - William Cozens was one of those interviewed for the House of Commons Report on the plight of Coventry watchmakers, published in 1817.”

    Both movements are in need of a service, although they will both tick strongly for the full length of the fusee chain. The photographs clearly show the differing shape of the lever forks and the separation of the two pins. The Savage impulse notch on the roller is showing signs of wear and from what I have read, I understand this is commonly observed.

    John
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  7. #22
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Matthews)

    Hi John,

    An excellent set of pictures showing the difference between a Savage and a two pin lever very clearly.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  8. #23

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: gmorse)

    Nice job, John I'm even beginning to understand a little about the subject myself!
    Martin Rosen

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Matthews)

    Many thanks (belatedly) to John Matthews for this valuable body of data. I hope it will be permanently preserved somewhere and not allowed to sink into the depths of the archives.

    Unfortunately, all I can contribute is a distant memory of a homeless balance (plain gold) with a non-Savage two-pin table, which when I last saw it was lurking in one of the rusty tobacco- and biscuit-tins where I keep my orphaned parts. As far as I can remember, the table and pins were very similar to those in John's Cozens Matthews & Thorpe example. It was fairly small and gave the impression of having come from a half- or three-quarter-plate movement rather than a full-plate.

    Oliver Mundy.

  10. #25

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: Lychnobius)

    My thanks for kind comments.

    I attach a file of the examples I have found of the various escapements types under discussion. For each I have indicated my reference and where possible a hyperlink to the source. There is a long list of 'unverified Savage 2 pin levers', reflecting, in my opinion, the lack of sufficient information to categorise them with absolute certainty. If there is evidence that I have missed, or interpreted incorrectly, please post it so that I can update the file.

    If further examples come to my attention I will post an updated file, The file has a creation date in the footer to able versions to be easily distinguished.

    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Non-Standard Levers - examples.pdf  

  11. #26

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: DaveyG)

    Thanks for the file John; it has gone into my Pocket Watch Data file. Regards Ray

  12. #27

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: Omexa)

    While researching rack levers and the output of Litherland, I have identified two further examples to add to the lists.

    Standard Lever Escapement with Two Pins

    LITHERLAND & CO Liverpool #3005, cl802 (A Treherne AH March 2012)
    Savage Two Pin Lever Escapement
    LITHERLAND DAVIES & CO Liverpool #8276 c1815 (A Treherne AH March 2012)

    I found these examples in a report of a Northern Meeting talk given on 11 November 2011; in addition the report contains this rather interesting comment relevant to the development of early English levers -
    This raises the following questions, challenging received wisdom regarding the development of the detached lever escapement: Was Savage an escapement maker (working for Litherland making rack lever escapements?) who (like Massey) worked for many years on the development of the detached lever escapement, culminating in what became known as the Savage 2-pin escapement, but also inventing the non-Savage 2-pin escapement used by Litherland and others in early detached lever watches?”


    An earlier paper by David Evans on Peter Litherland (AH vol 32/1, March 2010) identifies a series of Savage 2 pin watches made from 1813 -
    Thomas Davies joined Litherland, Whiteside in 1813 at 64 Church Street. Davies appears to have been an experimenter, perhaps in the same mould as Peter Litherland. No sooner had he taken over the firm then they produced a batch of Savage 2-Pin lever movements (serial numbers 8200 - 8800 range)”

    From this it seems highly probably that
    LITHERLAND DAVIES & CO Liverpool #8480 1815 (Skinner auction 1 May 2010)
    was originally made as a Savage 2 pin and I have reclassified this example accordingly.

    John

  13. #28

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Matthews)

    This ¾ plate movement was described by the seller as a high grade movement by Barraud & Lund that had been overwound and was sold for spares. In fact it is a fusee Savage 2-pin with what I believe are gold pins with relatively little wear. The watch was fully unwound and the chain was still unbroken despite the seller probably trying to wind it in the wrong direction. It is in need of a service, but will work smoothly for a few hours. The dial has hairlines, I don't think the hands are original and the second hand is broken. On the basis of Jagger this 2/5485 movement dates from c1850 and is close to another uncased movement (2/5493) that is described as a “Savage” lever.

    I have added it to the list

    Savage Two Pin Lever Escapement

    BARRAUDS & LUND Cornhill London #2/5485 c1850 (jem)

    John



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  14. #29

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: John Matthews)

    I attach an updated file and draw your attention to the upcoming article which David Penney has highlighted 'The anomalies surrounding Savage's life have been unravelled in recent time by Andy Blagg whose article should be published in Antiquarian Horology in the near future.'

    John

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Non-Standard Levers - 20170421.pdf  

  15. #30

    Default Re: Non-Standard English Lever Escapements from the first half Nineteenth Century (By: gmorse)

    Hi John, 2 very nice Pocket Watches you have got hold of recently. Regards Ray

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