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  1. #31
    Registered User KurtinSA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: Tinker Dwight)

    Not sure what you mean by "center of the pendulum". The regulator is above the arc that runs through coil.

    No, I've not been logging...sorry about that. But the big picture is that I've been about 5-7 minutes slow overnight no matter where I rotate the adjuster. I had the idea that maybe the use of the + and - were reversed on this clock. I've been cranking the regulator many times towards the +. Earlier, I decided to move it towards the - and it's still the same amount of slow...just from general observation. I was encouraged with this direction of regulation after I used the key-tap beat counter...was getting around 5400 BPH but the clock is still loosing time.

    Kurt

  2. #32

    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: dennishoy)

    Quote Originally Posted by dennishoy View Post
    I've found that the type of battery can affect the time keeping by diverting some of the magnetic field.
    Original zinc batteries had no metal case but those dreadful Duracell types have a steel case which can cause problems.
    I have found the type that take a 'C' size cell are worse affected and have proved it by hanging the battery on fly-leads a few inches away from the clock after which the time keeping was fine.
    Another 'quirk' I found was that if I put several of these clocks side-by-side as close as possible, then after few minutes, all the pendulum(s) move together in harmony.
    This was most obvious with the German Schatz type.
    That's a very kool observation...............Whoooda thunkit............The type of battery case effecting time keeping.
    I'm really not into electric clocks, but I've had several over the years. And till now, I thought all I needed was the proper voltage battery.

    And the pendulums sincing up is pretty neat too. Good one for the Science Guy on TV.
    The man who knows how to make it work will always have a job, The man who knows why it makes it work will always be his boss.

  3. #33
    Administrator Bill Stuntz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: dennishoy)

    Quote Originally Posted by dennishoy View Post
    I found was that if I put several of these clocks side-by-side as close as possible, then after few minutes, all the pendulum(s) move together in harmony.
    I'm not sure this is necessarily related to the magnetic fields. I'm pretty sure it happens with spring or weight driven pendulums too. Especially if there's any "give" in the shelf.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: KurtinSA)

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtinSA View Post
    Not sure what you mean by "center of the pendulum". The regulator is above the arc that runs through coil.
    Kurt
    When the adjuster reaches about half way, it stops going faster and begins to go slower
    again.
    It is related to the stuff I've been complaining about on talking about moving the center
    of gravity up to make it go faster. It is bad thinking and fails when looking at things
    like moving additional weights, other than those with a single ball at the end of a string.
    I'd asked you to log to see if you were above the point where it starts to slow the pendulum
    again. If you are above that point, you need to be below it.
    When you are having rate problems, logging is important otherwise you can be
    wasting weeks and not get anywhere.
    Tinker Dwight

  5. #35
    Registered User KurtinSA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: Tinker Dwight)

    Tinker -

    I've started a log. I'll wait for 24 hours and make a change. After about 2 hours, I was already about 45 seconds slow.

    Seems strange that the adjuster has the simple +/- with no notice for "oops you've gone too far". Given the massive bar/fixture that arcs through the coil, I'm having a hard time seeing how the movement of the adjuster could flip the center of gravity one way or the other.

    Kurt
    Last edited by KurtinSA; 02-13-2017 at 04:28 PM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: KurtinSA)

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtinSA View Post
    Tinker -

    I've started a log. I'll wait for 24 hours and make a change. After about 2 hours, I was already about 45 seconds slow.

    Seems strange that the adjuster has the simple +/- with no notice for "oops you've gone too far". Given the massive bar/fixture that arcs through the coil, I'm having a hard time seeing how the movement of the adjuster could flip the center of gravity one way or the other.

    Kurt


    I keep telling you to dump the center of gravity thinking. It is just absolutely wrong.
    The equation is T=2*Pi*sqrt( sum(M*L^2/(g*sum(M*L))
    sum(M*L) is the calculation for the center of gravity. Notice it is divided into the other number.
    What happen when you divide a number by a larger number? Does the result get bigger or
    smaller?
    The calculation clearly shows that if you only changed by moving the center of gravity down,
    the clock would run faster, not slower!!!!
    So, the thinking in terms of the center of gravity by itself is flawed.
    What is making the pendulum slower when you lower the bob?
    It is the number that is being divided that is growing faster then the center of gravity is
    speeding it up. That is the term sum(M*L^2).
    That is the inertial term. If you try to move something heavy, that is
    on a frictionless surface, what keeps it from
    flying off at 100 miles an hour?
    It is INERTIA!
    Rotational inertia is the mass times the distance squared form the center of rotation.
    What then controls the speed of a pendulum?
    Gravity is pulling at the CG, trying to make it go faster.
    Rotational inertia is trying to make it go slower.
    When the adjustment weight is just above the main bob, moving it up
    reduces the rotational inertia faster than it reduces the CG.
    So, the CG wins and the pendulum goes faster.
    As the small weight crosses the center, the CG is being reduced
    faster than the rotational inertia. Gravity has less to pull on and there is
    little change in the total rotational inertia of the entire pendulum.
    The pendulum slows.
    The point is, on these clocks you can rotate the adjuster past the point that
    it makes it run faster ( I did this by accident but quickly realized it by looking
    at the change in rate ).
    Now, the point about approximately the center of the pendulum. There are a number of other
    masses on the pendulum in question. Without experimenting and measuring. I couldn't
    tell you where it flipped over. I do know it does, just not exactly where.
    So, when talking about making a pendulum go faster, stop saying that it was because
    you moved the CG up. Looking at the equation, it alone should have the opposite effect.
    What is making it go faster is reducing the rotational inertia faster than moving the CG.
    I hope this helps a little. I realize this CG thing is ingrained into peoples thinking.
    It is wrong and confusing, especially when the pendulum has more than one weight.
    I try to educate on this but old timers refuse to change their thinking and pass on
    wrong information to the new people.
    Tinker Dwight
    Last edited by Tinker Dwight; 02-13-2017 at 05:53 PM.

  7. #37
    Registered User KurtinSA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: Tinker Dwight)

    Tinker -

    I guess I mentioned CG because you had mentioned it...but now I see that you have been "complaining" about that notion.

    Certainly, there are several things going on. I can't remember anyone suggested that movement of the bob weight on a "regular" pendulum clock must be considered in this same way. I've only heard that moving it down slows the clock down. Is the difference due to how far away from the rotational inertia center these bob weights are, such that gravity is the dominant force?

    Update...after 6 hours, I'm 2m30s slow.

    Kurt

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: KurtinSA)

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtinSA View Post
    Tinker -

    I guess I mentioned CG because you had mentioned it...but now I see that you have been "complaining" about that notion.

    Certainly, there are several things going on. I can't remember anyone suggested that movement of the bob weight on a "regular" pendulum clock must be considered in this same way. I've only heard that moving it down slows the clock down. Is the difference due to how far away from the rotational inertia center these bob weights are, such that gravity is the dominant force?

    Update...after 6 hours, I'm 2m30s slow.

    Kurt
    I looked back through my post and couldn't find where I mentioned
    the CG. I'm usually careful to not mention it.
    Now, you should adjust the bob some and note both
    the direction, + or -, and the amount.
    You'll need this information to determine what you want to do next.
    Tinker Dwight

  9. #39
    Administrator Bill Stuntz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: Tinker Dwight)

    I got my AA battery holder in the mail today. I gutted the dead Kundo 825 battery, soldered the wires to the terminals inside the lid, and hot glued the AA holder to the inside of the lid. With the lid on, it looks 100% original. The AA holder is a friction fit in the Kundo battery case, so the lid stays on. And I can just slide it out to change the battery.

    Now that I can actually run it, I've noticed that it actually does tick..tock, but the tock is softer and VERY different from the tick when it hits the pawl. Clock Tuner can't seem to make up its mind whether it's hearing 10800 or 21600bph. It seems to randomly lock into one or the other. Maybe I can adjust the audio sensitivity to get it to ignore the tocks, but I may not bother. Whichever one it picks, it's now reporting an error of +/- about 30 seconds per day. I had to rotate the "bell" to get it that close. It was reporting N/A error and about 20000bph looking for 21600 when I first started it.

    P.S. With the dome on, my phone laying flat on top, and CT's audio sensitivity set to medium, it auto-locks onto a target rate of 10800 consistently.
    Last edited by Bill Stuntz; 02-14-2017 at 12:09 AM.

  10. #40
    Registered User KurtinSA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: Bill Stuntz)

    After 24 hours, the clock was 10min 30sec slow. I turned the adjuster one full turn towards the + sign.

    I just checked after 3 hours, the clock is 1min 5 sec slow. Multiply by 8 for 24 hours, the estimated time deviation will be 8 min 40 sec slow. I guess that's some progress. I'll verify after 24 hours.

    Kurt

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: KurtinSA)

    If you can get the free version of Clock Tuner or that tapping program to work for you, you can get it pretty close in just a few minutes. Adjust, let it stabilize for a couple minutes, adjust again, repeat until it's close. Then see how close it actually IS after 24 hours or so. That attack plan works very well for me. That's what I did last night, and it looks like I'm maybe 45 seconds slow after however many hours it's been. It's hard to tell without a second hand.

  12. #42
    Registered User KurtinSA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: Bill Stuntz)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Stuntz View Post
    If you can get the free version of Clock Tuner or that tapping program to work for you, you can get it pretty close in just a few minutes. Adjust, let it stabilize for a couple minutes, adjust again, repeat until it's close.
    I have the free version and did what you suggested...I set it on top of the clock case. It's on medium sensitivity and in the Auto mode. After a number of sections of sampling it showed 10800. It seems to only show set numbers, nothing that is specific to any beat rate. I don't find the free version to be that useful.

    I just retried the tapping program...I'm getting numbers around 5400, some higher, some lower. Seems like that should mean the clock's set?? In reality, I'm still running slow.

    Kurt

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: KurtinSA)

    Going to faster, the adjustment, adjust less each turn. Based on that, I'd turn it
    4.5 times +.
    Do remember to run it where you intend to run it. It is sensitive to the
    near by environment.
    Dwight

  14. #44
    Administrator Bill Stuntz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: KurtinSA)

    I don't remember the free version very well, but my recollection is that the main reason I went to the paid version was that it allows custom target beat rates. If I recall correctly, the rate for my ST124 (10584) wasn't included in the free version's selections. It SHOULD show the target rate on the top line, and the actual measured rate below that. If the target and measured are too far apart, it will show N/A in the error field. When you get close, it'll show the error rate in minutes:seconds. It wanders, but I see 10803.6 +28seconds at the moment. Maybe I didn't mess with it long enough last night, but tonight it's doing its 10800/21600 thing again.

    I just set my phone on top of the little Relide alarm clock that I got in the same lot as the ST. It took it about a minute to decide that the target rate should be 18000, and the error varied +/- a minute or so over the next couple minutes. It seems to be VERY sensitive to extraneous noises. Maybe I/we need to fiddle with the sensitivity or something.

    It was much more stable when I set my dad's Elgin pocket watch on my phone, directly over the microphone. It quickly selected 18000 & reported 17996 to 17998.

  15. #45
    Registered User KurtinSA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seth Thomas K&O ATO (By: Bill Stuntz)

    The free version doesn't do any of that.

    Kurt

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