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  1. #16

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Agassiz made a WWII era military wind indicator, anyone know what markings it carried?
    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  2. #17
    Registered User Jim Haney's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Chaplain View Post
    Hi Jim - thank you very much for the photos of these military examples. One thing - I believe the dial shown here is not for the Elgin white dial example you hoped to show, but for a different Hamilton white dial example, which is also shown in your next post and described there as a Hamilton example.
    Dave,
    Thanks for pointing this out. I guess when up loading the pictures that day, the tiny icons of the white dials all looked the same.

    This is the Elgin dial


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    Jim Haney

  3. #18

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Fred Hansen)

    I don't have much research on this, but here's what my Agassiz GCT 24 hour dial example looks like ...

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    Member Chapter 149

  4. #19

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Great Thread! Here is a Waltham AN5740-1 that I have.
    Paul
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  5. #20

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Paul Regan)

    Great watch Dave! Are there any markings on the case back?
    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  6. #21

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Fred Hansen)

    Fred, no markings on the rear of the stainless steel cases "as made", as far as I can tell. Which is the same for the few I've seen (maybe 5 in total) after looking for some time. Two other movements are numbered close to mine and share the same (Touchon ebauche?) top plate layout (three in total). And two others are from a number series about 15K higher than mine and have a common but different bridge layout. All of the case numbers are either the same or very close to the movement numbers (I saw one that was off by one number), with plain back finish. Of those I've seen, two have a rectangular and seemingly functional hack seconds button on the side of the case, and three look to have the rectangular hack spot filled and disabled. Mine also has an owners name engraved on the rear of the case - Leo Estes. I found a Navy man named Leo Estes at the Naval Air Station Pensacola in 1941-42, and on the carrier USS Saratoga in 1945. But that's as far as I've got.

    Here are pics of my (not cleaned) case and cuvette snap backs covers:
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    (the dark spot/matrix on the case back were caused by a rubber-like shelf storage material that the case was lying on. It'll clean off, but still ... :/ )
    Last edited by Dave Chaplain; 01-09-2017 at 07:06 PM.
    Member Chapter 149

  7. #22

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Dave Chaplain)

    The Agassiz GCT sn's seen:

    with Touchon ebauche, marked Agassiz Watch Co. Twenty-One 21 Jewels Adjusted Temperature AXA Swiss:
    226881
    226940
    226969

    and with a more standard bridge layout, marked Agassiz Watch Co. Twenty-One 21 Jewels Adjusted Temperature AXA Swiss:
    237531
    237628

    I'd cite the source of the 2nd pic, but don't remember where it was retrieved from the internet ...

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    Also, the dials are the same on all examples.
    Last edited by Dave Chaplain; 01-09-2017 at 07:28 PM.
    Member Chapter 149

  8. #23

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Thanks Dave, great info. I've always admired these but haven't studied them closely. I'll keep an eye out for additional examples and post back with any I see.
    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  9. #24

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Hi Fred,

    I completely forgot about this thread, with many more sightings of the Agassiz GCT listed here on the NAWCC MB:
    Member Chapter 149

  10. #25
    Registered User grtnev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1

    Quote Originally Posted by C. N. Lloyd View Post
    {{If we observe a strict interpretation of Marvin Whitney’s comments regarding the definition of an A13, we are left with the call of a Master Navigation Watch with a white 0-23 dial as being the sole determinant of an A13. Mr. Whitney makes this reference in the Navigation Master Watch chapter of his landmark book, ‘Military Timepieces’.

    Elgin’s original Navigation Master Watch was the grade 506, converted on an as-required basis to a 24 hour train and a white enamel 0-23 dial with a wind indicator. As to how many converted 506s are out there, I know not. You would have to see the procurement contract. All of the 506s will be late 30s production. The few I have seen may or may not have A13 or Navigation Master Watch on the cases; some have been seen in unmarked cases, some in plain cases with a single control number inscribed. Some serial numbers may indicate a similarly converted 494 - I do not think I have seen one, but the possibility is valid.

    After the war began, Elgin made a Navigation Master Watch in the grade 544, with a total of 200 produced. 5 of the 6 544s (1 was in a misappropriated GF case) that I have ever seen all plainly say Type A13 Navigation Master Watch. 544s originally had the white 0-23 enamel dial, and, some are fitted with a wind indicator, some are not, although the 3 I have seen that were not WI examples did have the WI gear pinion holes. When it was determined to eliminate the wind indicator, Elgin began production of the 581, at first with the white enamel dial. And that is why I am in full agreement with Mr. Whitney as to what an A13 is: a Navigation Master Watch with a white dial. Neither Hamilton nor Waltham ever put white dials on their watches, so A13 production is out for them. To my knowledge, there have never been any claims of a Hamilton or Waltham marked A13.........

    Going back to his [Whitney's] definition in his book, the black 0-23 dial would be the AN 5740, and a black 1-24 dial is an AN 5740-1. I differ from Mr. Whitney’s stated premise in his definition of a mere dial change being the exclusive difference between an AN 5740 and an AN 5740-1.

    Based on what I and all the rest of us have seen over the years, black dials on all WWII contract watches are AN 5740s, regardless of an 0-23 or a 1-24 register. I believe that Elgin, once awarded a contract for the AN 5740 with the new black dial (made of painted metal now, not enamel - and much cheaper to produce), merely reversed the colors of its standard A13 dial, without thinking much about it, and subsequently cranked up production again. You can be pretty certain that Elgin was authorized by the War Department to exhaust their supply of both white & black 0-23 dials, the dart type hands, as well as A13 marked cases, as Navigation Master Watches were considered an item of very critical issue status, shipments not to be delayed due to a benign or cosmetic difference from spec, and this appears to be the best explanation of those occasional sightings of the Elgin 581s with black 0-23 dials in A13 cases.

    The Whitney AN 5740 definition does not fit the Hamilton 4992B or the Waltham 1622. Neither had an 0-23 dial on theirs, which, according to his premise, would mean that they are AN 5740-1s, and we all know that is not the case. From Hamilton’s contracts in 1941, 1942, 1943, & 1944, Elgin’s contracts from 1942 & 1943 - if any of you have a different year on your case, let it be known - and Waltham, with their single contract in 1944, only AN 5740 is marked on the cases - except for Elgin using up their A13 stock.

    The AN 5740-1 only begins to show up on the subsequent contracts after 1948, when the last WWII contract was fulfilled. Beginning in 1952, a new contract was let for Navigation Master Watches, with Hamilton again chosen to fill them, still calling the watch by its AN 5740 designation. However, all of the later contracts of 1956, 1958, and 1959 (these are the contract years I have seen) will either have the cases labeled AN 5740-1 or Navigation Master Watch with the 33106 part number, which replaced part number 4992B in 1943. Sometimes a reference will be given as ‘type AN 5740', which indicates that no matter what the current spec code is for the watch, we want the same one like those.

    It is my speculation, with nothing at all to back it up other than a military background in Field Artillery & Logistics, that the variation AN 5740-1 of the old WWII designation of AN 5740 came about on those post war contracts to ID a watch belonging to the USAF, and not to the USAAC. It has nothing to do with dials, hands, cases, components, or parts. The new AN 5740-1 designation signifies a new end user, and is likely for inter-service accountability and for future contract reference...

    C. N. Lloyd
    38 years of pocket watch collecting

    After further study, I believe that Mr. Lloyd has pretty much nailed it and that the descriptions that I offered earlier, based primarily on Whitney as the prime reference are in error.

    Mr. Lloyd states: "The AN 5740-1 only begins to show up on the subsequent contracts after 1948, when the last WWII contract was fulfilled. Beginning in 1952, a new contract was let for Navigation Master Watches, with Hamilton again chosen to fill them, still calling the watch by its AN 5740 designation. However, all of the later contracts of 1956, 1958, and 1959 will either have the cases labeled AN 5740-1 or Navigation Master Watch with the 33106 part number".

    From what I have been able to ascertain, AN5740 was revised twice with the 1st revision; i.e. AN5740-1 dated 15 March 1957. Consequently, as Mr. Lloyd stated, "the later contracts of 1956, 1958, and 1959 will either have the cases labeled AN 5740-1 or Navigation Master Watch with the 33106 part number".

    1. First revision: Document Number:AN5740 rev 1
    Publish Date: 1957-March-15
    Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWCIHEODTD)

    2. Second revision: Document Number: AN5740 rev2

    Publish Date: 1961-April-25
    Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWCIHEODTD)

    What is still not clear to me is the difference between:
    an Elgin A-13 (WHITE 0-23 hour, 0-55 minute dial and dart type hands with the smaller, smooth outside diameter A-13 type case), and
    the Elgin variant with a
    BLACK 0-23 hour, 0-55 minute dial and dart type hands with the smaller, smooth outside diameter A-13 type case.

    The only difference between these two watches is the color of the dial and hands; i.e. white (A-13) vs. black (A-13 variant?) Please refer to the pictures below. Pictures 1 and 2 are the white dial A-13. Third picture is the black dial variant.

    To further confuse the issue, I found an example of the black dial variant on line where the description states: "Black face has luminous dial with 24-hour time interior and outer rim designated in seconds. Reverse has AN proof stamp and military nomenclature designation "TYPE A-13"........." Refer to the fourth picture (far right). There is no way to absolutely know that the case and watch in the last picture were originally together. However, it does raise the question...did Elgin make both a white dial and black dial variant of the A-13? I have not been able to find Military Specification 94-2796 for the A-13. If anyone has access to a copy of this spec and can post it as a part of this thread, it would be much appreciated.

    Summarizing, I agree with Mr. Lloyd's observations and conclusions except for one remaining question that I raise at this time. Did Elgin produce both a white dial and black dial variant of the A-13? It would make more sense to me that both the white dial and black dial variants shown below are both A-13's since the only differences between the two are dial and hand colors; whereas there are significantly more differences between the watches shown below and an AN 5740 as previously discussed (different dial markings, different style hands, larger case, etc.).

    Is the example in the fourth picture (below right) accurate; i.e. black dial variant watch being described as having the case marked A-13?

    For reference:
    Pictures 1 and 2, below left; Elgin A-13 (white dial) is s/n 40500199, non gold-flashed movement, ca: 1941, movement marked U.S. Army A. C.
    Picture 3, the Elgin black dial variant is s/n 40470345, gold-flashed movement, ca: 1941, movement marked U.S. Army A.C. (This is also interesting in that the black dial variant was produced prior to the white dial A-13. Question is, is it also an A-13?)

    Richard
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    Last edited by grtnev; 03-30-2017 at 02:06 PM.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: C. N. Lloyd)

    Richard, to speculate along with you, I cannot discount your black dial A13 theory. The white dials would have almost certainly been changed out for the black dials in the instance of being brought in for service or repairs, as the new spec called for black dials. I can say I have never seen a black 0-23 Elgin in a AN5740 marked case, but I have only seen probably 200 or less Elgin NMWs anyway, compared to maybe a thousand 4992Bs. So, I would not argue against your black dial A13 premise without more evidence to discount it. However, this would run the risk of having a 1-24 dial on some of these early runs, which I do not recall ever having seen - unless the 0-23 dials were packaged in A13 labeled tins, and the 1-24 dials in AN5740 tins.

    Since posting my previous in January, I have recorded a 1957 contract on a Hamilton, marked DA-36-038-ORD-20108. The case was just too chewed up (for me) for consideration.

    Also Richard, in your locating those change orders, is MS 28076 mentioned? I have a hand-written note that AN5740-1 changed to this MS (Military Specification) number in March 1957, but could not source the information when I wrote it down. For the record, I do have this MS number on a couple of my later 4992Bs, SNs of over 4C130xxx. The final contracts list a DAAA25 code, followed by a organizational SN with the year being the 1st 2 digits. I have one marked DAAA25 {68-0066}, and have seen one like it with a 1967 date. Both have an over 4C140xxx SN. The only thing I can conjure up for a definition is Dept. of Air / Army Aeronautics, but, who knows.

    For those who can (and care to) access Hamilton records for war contract information, I can provide this contract list:

    USAAC
    W535 ac 20872 (1942)
    W535 ac 22375 (1942)
    W535 ac 40783 (1942 & 1943) posted January 2017 in this thread by Terry Hall
    W535 ac 86366 (1943)

    USA
    W145 ENG - This is the order filled for the U.S. Army, which were probably the ones used in ground service operations. After having seen another recently, I can now confirm the number to the right of ENG will be the organizational SN of the watch. Both watch SNs were in the 4C6xxx range.

    USAF
    DA-36-038-ORD - 9702 (1952)
    DA-36-038-ORD - 9888 (1952)
    DA-36-038-ORD - 19668 (1956)
    DA-36-038-ORD - 20108 (1957)
    DA-36-038-ORD - 21409(M) (1958)
    DA-36-038-ORD - 20872 (1959) - 20872 was also a WWII contract, so, proceed with caution.

    The posting of these contracts would go a very long way toward determining what would be a correct case for the movement. However, bear in mind that these contracts will not account for all of the watches. There were, in addition to the contracts, Orders and P.Os. (probably Purchase Order) that appear to be placed on the case in orders of just a few watches. Exactly what constitutes ‘a few’ I have no idea, but I would think maybe orders of 100 or less, although I may be completely wrong. There are also instances of single purchases, which if to a general or flag officer, may account for many of the blank cases out there. This is why locating the contracts would be so enlightening for us military watch collectors.

    C. N. Lloyd
    38 years of pocket watch collecting

  12. #27

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: C. N. Lloyd)

    Hopefully this will add something to the discussion so far ... the attached photos show a Waltham 16-A / 1622 with a black 24-hr dial, and with the movement marked:

    16-A Waltham U.S.A. 22 Jewels Adj. Temp. 3 Pos.

    And with the case marked:

    AN 5740 MFRs PART NO 1622-S-24-C CONTR NO W-11-107Ac-581 SER NO AF-44-937 Waltham

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    Member Chapter 149

  13. #28

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Dave Chaplain)

    Also. this black dialed Elgin may be of interest ...

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    Member Chapter 149

  14. #29

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1

    And one more Elgin 0-23 black dial example, with the movement marked:

    B.W. Raymond 21 Jewels Adjusted 5 Positions Temperature U.S. Army A.C., E.N.W.Co. U.S.A. (under bal)

    And with the case marked:

    Type A13 Spec. No. AN-GG-W-108 Ser. No. AC42-4781 Mfrs. Part No. 1786 Ord. No. W535AC-2807 Elgin

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  15. #30
    Registered User grtnev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1

    Quote Originally Posted by C. N. Lloyd View Post
    Also Richard, in your locating those change orders, is MS 28076 mentioned?
    I found the references to the two revisions of AN 5740 at the following links: http://standards.globalspec.com/std/...y-an5740-rev-1 and http://standards.globalspec.com/std/...740-rev-2-canc. Unfortunately you have to subscribe to the service to get access to the actual documents to get a copy of them - which I haven't done - hoping someone on the forum may have access to them.

    One other point of interest. I found a 2nd "black dial" A-13, s/n 40470346, at the following link: https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/prof...ion/view/62499
    On the case back of that watch, the referenced specification is: SPEC NO. AN-GG-W-108 and the watch is marked "A-13"

    In my post five above this one, I show a white dial A-13 (s/n 40500199), which is a watch that I own. On the case back, the referenced specification is: SPEC NO 94-27968

    Whitney states that: "Master Navigation Watch Army-Navy Aeronautical Specification AN-GG-W-108, dated August 6, 1941, superseded the current issue of U.S. Army Specification 94-27968...."

    In my notes, I have the picture below as the dial configuration for SPEC NO. AN-GG-W-108. The dial configuration shown is for AN 5740. However, the case back of the previously mentioned 2nd black dial A-13, s/n 40470346, in addition to being marked A-13, is also marked SPEC NO. AN-GG-W-108

    Does this imply that somehow SPEC NO. AN-GG-W-108 applied to both black dial variant master navigation watches; i.e. "A-13 with black dial and white hands" as well as AN-5740?

    I think we pretty much all agree/understand what a white dial A-13 manufactured by Elgin is; as well as a black dial AN-5740 manufactured by Elgin, Hamilton, and Waltham.

    Dave Chaplain, in the post just above this one, shows s/n 40470553 and states that the case is marked as A-13 and SPEC NO AN-GG-W-108. Additionally, I have found two examples on line which depict a black dial/white hand variant marked A-13. This suggests that the black dial, white hand variant of the A-13 was indeed a reality. That being said, it would be nice to find this configuration in a specification somewhere.

    Richard
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