Goal: $300, Received: $360.00 (120%) Contribute Now
Donate whatever you can or Join the 14,000 other NAWCC members for only $80 (plus $10 for hard copy publications). Check it out here.



Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 32
  1. #1
    Registered User grtnev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Minden, Nevada
    Posts
    366

    Default Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1

    The following three threads provide useful background.

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?30964-Army-Air-Corps-Center-Second-B-W-Raymond&highlight=master+navigation
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?100550-Hamilton-and-waltham-gct&highlight=master+navigation
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?136951-Elgin-A-13-Master-Navigation-Watch&highlight=AN5740

    Summarizing the latter/post Weems development of the Master Navigation Watch which eventually evolved into the AN5740-1 variant:

    The A-9 was the first variant that had a "hack" feature and was manufactured for the U.S. Army Air Corps by Longines. The hack feature was a slide bar at approximately the 2 o'clock position on the case. To the best of my limited knowledge, this watch was only manufactured by Longines. A question to the members of this forum: Is anyone aware of any other manufacturer of the A-9 other than Longines?

    The A-13 was the first variant to include the "hack" feature into the stem. Pulling out on the stem stopped the movement. The A-13 has a white dial, with the minutes marked from 0-55 and the hours marked from 0-23. "GCT" is marked below the center of the dial. The hands are narrow, baton style. The case is smooth and slightly smaller than the cases used on the later variants. To the best of my limited knowledge, this watch was only manufactured by Elgin. A question to the members of this forum: Is anyone aware of any other manufacturer of the A-13 other than Elgin?

    The AN5740 variant utilized a slightly larger case with knurling on the outside edge of the case. (Consequently the back case cover from an AN5740 will not fit the earlier A-13 case and vice versa.) Functionally, the AN5740 was essentially identical to the A-13 except that it incorporated a black dial instead of the white dial used on the A-13. Additionally, the "AN" designated that the watch was to be jointly use by both the Army and Navy. To the best of my limited knowledge, this watch was only manufactured by Elgin. A question to the members of this forum: Is anyone aware of any other manufacturer of the AN5740 other than Elgin?

    The AN5740-1 variant was similar to its predecessor, the AN5740, in that it also incorporated the black 24 hour dial with the following changes:
    1. The minutes were marked from 5-60
    2. The hours marked from 1-24.
    3. "GCT" is marked above the center of the dial.
    4. The hands were changed to a larger RR spade style.

    The AN5740-1 was manufactured by Hamilton (140,000 watches), Elgin (20,000 watches), and Waltham (5,000 watches).

    The following pictures illustrate the dial/hand variations from the A-13 (left) to the AN5740 (center) to the AN5740-1 (right). The attached Excel spreadsheet lists 7 Elgin watches that I have found on this forum which cover the A-13 through AN5740-1 variants. What is interesting in this very limited amount of data is that the earlier serial numbers also carried the marking on the movement of "U. S. Army A. C.". Additionally some of these Elgin movements were gold flashed while others were not.

    The development of the master navigation watch has been an interest of mine. I have owned both a Hamilton and Elgin 5740-1 for some time. Earlier this year, I was lucky enough to acquire an Elgin A-13. Just this past week, I acquired an Elgin AN5740. Although as a rule, I limit my watch collection to American RR and Military variants, if I could ever find a Longines A-9, I would definitely have to try and add it to the collection.

    Also, I should mention, that in the picture of the A-13 example below, it has a very unusual additional feature in that there are two hour hands, 6 hours apart, for tracking two time zones. This feature was discussed in the last link listed above. This is the only master navigation watch that I have come across that had two hour hands.

    Richard
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dial 1.jpg   Dial.jpg   DSC02068.JPG  
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by grtnev; 12-23-2016 at 05:23 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: grtnev)

    Excellent data Richard, thanks for taking the time to provide it here.
    Paul

  3. #3
    Registered User Brad Maisto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Grandview, IN
    Posts
    444

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Paul Regan)

    Richard,
    I have two 24-hour dial watches, one is Elgin and the second is a Hamilton 4992B, 22 jewels with serial 4C83543 on the movement in a Keystone base metal case with the following well marked on the outside of the back case cover:
    AN 5740
    MFRS PART NO. 33106
    SERIAL NO. AF43-22660
    CONTRACT NO.
    W535ac-40783
    HAMILTON WATCH CO.
    I have a picture of the black 24-hour dial and the "G. C. T." appears just like this below the "60" seconds and "24" hour rings, but my phone and iPad do not seem to be communicating right now, or my HughesNet internet sucks royally!
    The base metal Keystone case middle ring has serial 0472998 and the back cover has serial 917446, either they were mixed up by the Naval Repairman or some one later?
    My Elgin BWR is gold flashed and is serial 41,751,870. It is marked 21-jewels, Adjusted 5 Psitions, with TEMPERATURE below the small winding gear. The base metal case on the BWR is stamped cased and timed at the company and I cannot find a serial number stamped on the middle ting, but the back case cover has serial 81774.
    Hope this is of some useful information, and if and when possible, I will add a picture of my Hamilton dial.
    Brad Maisto

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    CehNehDeh
    Posts
    321

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Brad Maisto)

    Richard, see this The Military Watch Resource thread which contains a link titled here at the bottom of post #5,

    As I read it the A-13 was made by Longines and Elgin but did not have the hack feature, the A-9 however did.

    From the link:

    Type A-13

    The Type A-13 was a master navigation watch, similar to the Type A-9 except for incorporation of a start/stop feature. It was tested from September 1938 and standardized in May 1940. Changed to a limited standard in October 1941, and declared obsolete in November 1943. Longines-Wittnauer manufactured a Type A-13 GCT navigation watch in accordance with military specification 27968. Elgin manufactured a Type A-13 in accordance with military specification AN GG-W-108.

    My Longines, #5734338, which I believe to be an A-13 was made on Mar. 10, 1939 (info from Longines).

    The dial & hands could be better but it keeps perfect time.

    The case appears to be correct yet does not have any military markings.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Dial.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	118.8 KB 
ID:	326519Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Mvt. .jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	146.1 KB 
ID:	326520Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Mvt. Close-up .jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	121.5 KB 
ID:	326530Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Caseback .jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	122.7 KB 
ID:	326521Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Case Mkg. .jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	92.9 KB 
ID:	326522Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Bow .jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	96.4 KB 
ID:	326529

    169
    Last edited by onsite; 12-27-2016 at 11:58 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: onsite)

    Below is an image of Model 23 w/description.

    Robert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hamilton Model Twenty Three with Description.jpg  

  6. #6
    Registered User grtnev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Minden, Nevada
    Posts
    366

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Brad Maisto)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Maisto View Post
    Richard,
    I have two 24-hour dial watches, one is Elgin and the second is a Hamilton 4992B, 22 jewels with serial 4C83543 on the movement in a Keystone base metal case with the following well marked on the outside of the back case cover:
    AN 5740
    MFRS PART NO. 33106
    SERIAL NO. AF43-22660
    CONTRACT NO.
    W535ac-40783
    HAMILTON WATCH CO.
    I have a picture of the black 24-hour dial and the "G. C. T." appears just like this below the "60" seconds and "24" hour rings, but my phone and iPad do not seem to be communicating right now, or my HughesNet internet sucks royally!
    The base metal Keystone case middle ring has serial 0472998 and the back cover has serial 917446, either they were mixed up by the Naval Repairman or some one later?
    My Elgin BWR is gold flashed and is serial 41,751,870. It is marked 21-jewels, Adjusted 5 Psitions, with TEMPERATURE below the small winding gear. The base metal case on the BWR is stamped cased and timed at the company and I cannot find a serial number stamped on the middle ting, but the back case cover has serial 81774.
    Hope this is of some useful information, and if and when possible, I will add a picture of my Hamilton dial.
    Brad Maisto

    Brad,

    Thanks for the information.

    Richard

  7. #7
    Registered User grtnev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Minden, Nevada
    Posts
    366

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: onsite)

    Quote Originally Posted by onsite View Post
    Richard, see this The Military Watch Resource thread which contains a link titled here at the bottom of post #5,

    As I read it the A-13 was made by Longines and Elgin but did not have the hack feature, the A-9 however did.

    From the link:

    Type A-13

    The Type A-13 was a master navigation watch, similar to the Type A-9 except for incorporation of a start/stop feature. It was tested from September 1938 and standardized in May 1940. Changed to a limited standard in October 1941, and declared obsolete in November 1943. Longines-Wittnauer manufactured a Type A-13 GCT navigation watch in accordance with military specification 27968. Elgin manufactured a Type A-13 in accordance with military specification AN GG-W-108.

    My Longines, #5734338, which I believe to be an A-13 was made on Mar. 10, 1939 (info from Longines).

    The dial & hands could be better but it keeps perfect time.

    The case appears to be correct yet does not have any military markings.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Dial.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	118.8 KB 
ID:	326519Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Mvt. .jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	146.1 KB 
ID:	326520Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Mvt. Close-up .jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	121.5 KB 
ID:	326530Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Caseback .jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	122.7 KB 
ID:	326521Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Case Mkg. .jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	92.9 KB 
ID:	326522Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LGNS USAC Bow .jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	96.4 KB 
ID:	326529

    169
    Thanks for the reply,

    The 1st two pictures below are from pages 291 and 292 of Marvin Whitney's reference work Military Timepieces. (When I posted, the pictures posted out of order for some reason. Read the 2nd one first and the 1st one second. Sorry for the confusion - must have done something wrong on my end.) Whitney identifies the Longines Master Navigation Pocket Watch as being ca: 1939 which agrees with the information that you received from Longines for your watch.

    Everything that I have read indicates that the Longines Master Navigation Watch carried the military designation A9 and was the first Master Navigation Pocket Watch to incorporate a "Start/Stop" (hack) feature via a slide mechanism on the outside diameter of the case at the 2 o'clock position. Refer to the 3rd and 4th pictures.

    The Elgin A13 definitely does incorporate a "hack" feature. The Elgin A13 was the 1st Master Navigation Pocket Watch to incorporate the "Start/Stop" (hack) feature into the stem. Refer to the 5th picture from page 328 of Whitney.

    According to Elgin Watch Company - Identification and Price Guide by Roy Ehrhardt, the 1st Elgin Grade 581 was serial number 39,261,001. The online Elgin Database identifies s/n 39,261,001 as being manufactured in 1940. If Elgin was the sole manufacturer of the A13 variant, than this also imply that the first A13 could not have been manufactured any earlier than 1940. Elgin used Grade 581 for their A13, AN5740, and AN5740-1 Master Navigation Pocket Watches with production running from 1940-1942.

    Summarizing, as I understand the evolution and from the references that I have (including Whitney):
    - the Longines A9 hacks via a slide mechanism
    - the Elgin A13 and AN5740 hack via the stem
    - the Elgin/Hamilton/Waltham AN5740-1 hack via the stem

    On your watch, which I believe is a Longines A9, I don't see the start/stop slide mechanism. Could your watch have possibly been re-cased at some point in its history and in doing so, the "Start/Stop" (hack) slide mechanism was eliminated?

    Something that was unique to the Longines A9, which I forgot to mention previously, was that it also incorporated a wind indicator at the 24 hour position - as does your watch.

    Richard
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Longines A9_b.jpg   Longines A9_a.jpg   dial 2.jpg   slide bar.jpg   A13 Hack Stop Spring.jpg  

    Last edited by grtnev; 12-27-2016 at 09:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    CehNehDeh
    Posts
    321

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: grtnev)

    Quote Originally Posted by grtnev View Post


    On your watch, which I believe is a Longines A9, I don't see the start/stop slide mechanism. Could your watch have possibly been re-cased at some point in its history and in doing so, the "Start/Stop" (hack) slide mechanism was eliminated?


    Richard

    My watchmaker had it out of the case and there is/was no slide hack mechanism on this watch.

    Assuming the stem hack simply stops the second hand when pulled out to setting position, it does not have a stem hack.

    Could it be that this watch was made prior to the decision to incorporate the hack?

  9. #9
    Registered User Brad Maisto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Grandview, IN
    Posts
    444

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: onsite)

    Richard,
    Christmas was kind to me so I can finally post a few pics of my two watches. Brad Maisto
    P. S. Hamilton on the left and Elgin on the right in all three pictures.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0005.jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	287.4 KB 
ID:	327126Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0008.jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	165.7 KB 
ID:	327128
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0007.jpg  

  10. #10

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Brad Maisto)

    Below are scans from Hamilton Mil contracts in reference to your above watch with contract W535AC-40783

    I have NO idea if there are additional records at the NAWCC library or if these are in any particular order.
    I reviewed 'quickly' about 40 pages looking for WC535ac-40783.
    at least one page gives the specific data for the watch, how the case is to be marked, dial style, etc.

    good luck.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 025 4992B 1944 CONTRACT  note gray dial spec numbers.jpg   026 4992B 1944 CONTRACT.jpg   035 4992B 1945 CONTRACT.jpg   036 4992B 1945 CONTRACT.jpg  
    Chapter 17 North Carolina
    http://www.nawcc-carolina17.org/default.htm
    Chapter 149 Early American Watch Club .. Home of Russ Snyder Illinois CD database and Henry Burgell Serial number Look-up ... excellent research resources!
    http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/ http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/pw_dbresearch.html
    Chapter 149 Mentor List http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/mentor.html

  11. #11
    Registered user.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Red Level, Alabama
    Posts
    73

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: grtnev)

    {{A question to the members of this forum: Is anyone aware of any other manufacturer of the A-13 other than Elgin?}}

    Bottom Line up front: I believe the A13 was manufactured by Elgin & Longines, which also agrees with the MWR website. As I do not collect foreign made watches I will leave the Longines A13 discussions to others. As far as the Elgin A13, here goes.

    If we observe a strict interpretation of Marvin Whitney’s comments regarding the definition of an A13, we are left with the call of a Master Navigation Watch with a white 0-23 dial as being the sole determinant of an A13. Mr. Whitney makes this reference in the Navigation Master Watch chapter of his landmark book, ‘Military Timepieces’.

    Elgin’s original Navigation Master Watch was the grade 506, converted on an as-required basis to a 24 hour train and a white enamel 0-23 dial with a wind indicator. As to how many converted 506s are out there, I know not. You would have to see the procurement contract. All of the 506s will be late 30s production. The few I have seen may or may not have A13 or Navigation Master Watch on the cases; some have been seen in unmarked cases, some in plain cases with a single control number inscribed. Some serial numbers may indicate a similarly converted 494 - I do not think I have seen one, but the possibility is valid.

    After the war began, Elgin made a Navigation Master Watch in the grade 544, with a total of 200 produced. 5 of the 6 544s (1 was in a misappropriated GF case) that I have ever seen all plainly say Type A13 Navigation Master Watch. 544s originally had the white 0-23 enamel dial, and, some are fitted with a wind indicator, some are not, although the 3 I have seen that were not WI examples did have the WI gear pinion holes. When it was determined to eliminate the wind indicator, Elgin began production of the 581, at first with the white enamel dial. And that is why I am in full agreement with Mr. Whitney as to what an A13 is: a Navigation Master Watch with a white dial. Neither Hamilton nor Waltham ever put white dials on their watches, so A13 production is out for them. To my knowledge, there have never been any claims of a Hamilton or Waltham marked A13.

    {{ Is anyone aware of any other manufacturer of the AN5740 other than Elgin?}}

    This one is more complicated, especially if we try and fit what we see into Mr. Whitney’s definition, which I cannot. Going back to his definition in his book, the black 0-23 dial would be the AN 5740, and a black 1-24 dial is an AN 5740-1.

    I differ from Mr. Whitney’s stated premise in his definition of a mere dial change being the exclusive difference between an AN 5740 and an AN 5740-1. Based on what I and all the rest of us have seen over the years, black dials on all WWII contract watches are AN 5740s, regardless of an 0-23 or a 1-24 register.

    I believe that Elgin, once awarded a contract for the AN 5740 with the new black dial (made of painted metal now, not enamel - and much cheaper to produce), merely reversed the colors of its standard A13 dial, without thinking much about it, and subsequently cranked up production again. You can be pretty certain that Elgin was authorized by the War Department to exhaust their supply of both white & black 0-23 dials, the dart type hands, as well as A13 marked cases, as Navigation Master Watches were considered an item of very critical issue status, shipments not to be delayed due to a benign or cosmetic difference from spec, and this appears to be the best explanation of those occasional sightings of the Elgin 581s with black 0-23 dials in A13 cases.

    The Whitney AN 5740 definition does not fit the Hamilton 4992B or the Waltham 1622. Neither had an 0-23 dial on theirs, which, according to his premise, would mean that they are AN 5740-1s, and we all know that is not the case. From Hamilton’s contracts in 1941, 1942, 1943, & 1944, Elgin’s contracts from 1942 & 1943 - if any of you have a different year on your case, let it be known - and Waltham, with their single contract in 1944, only AN 5740 is marked on the cases - except for Elgin using up their A13 stock.

    The only other exception I can think of right now is the 4 4992Bs I have run across over the years having a white enamel dial (like a 3992B 12 hour dial but without the MOD broad arrow) and a 12 hour train. Some out there will swear these are post-war conversions, but I think not. 3 of these 12 hour 4992Bs were in correct mil-spec base metal cases which were blank; 1 was in what looked to be a pieced together AN 5740 case. Just as a 3992B is a 12 hour train, it does not fit the A13 definition, and neither would these 12 hour 4992Bs. The post war conversion kits, as far as I know, all had painted metal dials, which are pretty easy to spot, even with less than stellar photographs, and all I have seen will either be in a war production case, inscriptions and all, or in a non-military case altered to accept the long stem. I do not buy the premise of some that Hamilton made these dials for civilian purchase, as there are several posts here showing factory bulletins stating that no 4992B replacement parts are being made for civilian sales.

    The AN 5740-1 only begins to show up on the subsequent contracts after 1948, when the last WWII contract was fulfilled. Beginning in 1952, a new contract was let for Navigation Master Watches, with Hamilton again chosen to fill them, still calling the watch by its AN 5740 designation. However, all of the later contracts of 1956, 1958, and 1959 (these are the contract years I have seen) will either have the cases labeled AN 5740-1 or Navigation Master Watch with the 33106 part number, which replaced part number 4992B in 1943. Sometimes a reference will be given as ‘type AN 5740', which indicates that no matter what the current spec code is for the watch, we want the same one like those.

    It is my speculation, with nothing at all to back it up other than a military background in Field Artillery & Logistics, that the variation AN 5740-1 of the old WWII designation of AN 5740 came about on those post war contracts to ID a watch belonging to the USAF, and not to the USAAC. It has nothing to do with dials, hands, cases, components, or parts. The new AN 5740-1 designation signifies a new end user, and is likely for inter-service accountability and for future contract reference, because I can see immediately where the 5740 label would have created exponential panic within the bureaucratic cubicles tightly jammed inside the procurement building of things being ordered relating back to the USAAC, defunct since 1947.

    Since government is by and large re-active to things, an order placed for AN 5740s would have been a likely red flag catalyst that would have convened a conference room meeting to expedite the -1 change order & associated paper trail adjustment to calm the nerves of the procurement minions, agonizing over subtracting the funds to pay for these watches from the now non-existent bank account of a now non-existent service branch. The new AN 5740-1 designation would solve all of the fiscal accounting shortcomings - while keeping the product otherwise unchanged. And what is functionally different about a 4992B made in 1941 from a 4992B made in 1959? That’s right - nothing.

    Some 4992Bs were ordered by the Navy Bureau of Ships for uses not affiliated with aerial operations. Those cases, while bearing the same old AN 5740 designation, will have a totally different contract engraved on the case: F.S.S.C. (Federal Service Supply Classification) R88-W510 or a derivative thereof, and a organizational SN beginning with the letter H. I have this contract number on watch cases marked both 5740 (low 4C#) & 5740-1 (high 4C#), which supports this premise, because the Navy was a part owner of the NMW venture anyway, and changing the designation will not affect them: their budget funding is still being approved by congress.

    At least 1 contract was filled for the Army in 1942, for the Corps of Engineers. W145-ENG453 is the contract number on the case of mine; I do not know if the 453 is part of the contract or the organizational SN, as I have not seen another case marked like this one. These are probably those few 4992Bs that saw action in ground service operations, as the Engineer branch was a procurement and management point of contact for all sorts of off-the-shelf technical stuff just as the Quartermaster branch managed just about everything else.

    I know this has been detailed, perhaps beyond your patience. But, I looked at it for 4 or 5 days, and this is the shortest answer I can come up with. Again, a lot of this is my speculation based on working in artillery for 15 years and logistics for 13 years, and for 1 of those years, having to depend on the reliability and efficiency of the products procured by those pigeon holed bureaucrats out where the metal meets the meat. A good bit of this speculation might be cleared up if one with access could locate and post the other contracts as Terry Hall has done for 40783. A big thank you, Mr. Hall.

    A final word: military watch collectors know what we know, we try and fill in what we don’t know with a logical extension that would fit in with what we do know. There are those out there who will say Hey, wait a minute, I have SN so & so and it is in a case marked so & so, ergo you are completely wrong. The one thing that we do know - if we know little else - is the sheer number of watches in wrong cases, especially Hamilton. So, match up your watch SN and see if it fits the reasonable man theory as to the case it is in. WWII contract watches go through 4C96082. Anything higher should properly be in a post-WWII contract case. Cases were not kept with the watch through the servicing line. Once the watch was serviced, it was put into any case handy with no regard as to whether the case was the one it was wearing when it came in. Fortunately, for Waltham & Elgin at least, their short stem design assured their replacement in a matching case, and the Elgin A13 case components will not interchange with the heftier AN 5740 cases.

    C. N. Lloyd
    38 years of pocket watch collecting

  12. #12
    Registered User Jim Haney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Decatur, TN.
    Posts
    4,910

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: C. N. Lloyd)

    Two examples of the Military Elgins. The white dial is the A-13, Black Dial is AN-5740.



    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5251.JPG 
Views:	4 
Size:	239.1 KB 
ID:	327270]Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5250.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	234.8 KB 
ID:	327272Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5249.JPG 
Views:	3 
Size:	242.6 KB 
ID:	327273Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5248.JPG 
Views:	4 
Size:	239.3 KB 
ID:	327274

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5252.JPG 
Views:	8 
Size:	237.4 KB 
ID:	327269Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5247.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	238.4 KB 
ID:	327275Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5246.JPG 
Views:	3 
Size:	238.4 KB 
ID:	327276Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5245.JPG 
Views:	4 
Size:	241.0 KB 
ID:	327277Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5244.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	236.8 KB 
ID:	327278Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5243.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	240.2 KB 
ID:	327279

    Both of these watches have the Hack feature.

    White dial is # 39,516,133 and is Marked U.S.Army A.C.

    Info on back of case is hard to read because the stamping is very light except for the AC263 triangle at the top. I am glad to see another example because I thought it had a replacement bow.

    U.S. Army A.C.Watch Navagation Master Type A-13Ser. No. 41-826 Ord. No.W535AC-18210 Spec. No.94-27968 Mfg. Part No.1767 Elgin


    Black dial is # 42,078,191 and movement is not marked.

    Case back info is,

    AN-5740 MFRS.Part No. 1790 Cont. No. W535-40-37880 Ser. No. AF- 43-9296
    Elgin
    Last edited by Jim Haney; 01-03-2017 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Moved pictures around
    Jim Haney

  13. #13
    Registered User Jim Haney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Decatur, TN.
    Posts
    4,910

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Jim Haney)

    These are 3 Odd Ball dials for the 4992B that I picked up over the years.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5252.JPG 
Views:	15 
Size:	237.4 KB 
ID:	327280Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5253.JPG 
Views:	8 
Size:	245.4 KB 
ID:	327281

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5254.JPG 
Views:	10 
Size:	246.6 KB 
ID:	327282Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5255.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	243.2 KB 
ID:	327283

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5256.JPG 
Views:	12 
Size:	246.4 KB 
ID:	327284Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5258.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	239.7 KB 
ID:	327285Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5257.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	243.4 KB 
ID:	327286
    Jim Haney

  14. #14
    Registered User grtnev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Minden, Nevada
    Posts
    366

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Jim Haney)

    C. N.,

    Thank you for your comments - a very informative analysis. I need to re-read and digest what you have written.


    Jim,

    Very interesting examples of odd 4992b dials. Thank you for sharing.


    Just when I thought it was all beginning to make sense.....

    Richard

  15. #15

    Default Re: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740; and 5740-1 (By: Jim Haney)

    Hi Jim - thank you very much for the photos of these military examples. One thing - I believe the dial shown here is not for the Elgin white dial example you hoped to show, but for a different Hamilton white dial example, which is also shown in your next post and described there as a Hamilton example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Haney View Post
    Two examples of the Military Elgins. The white dial is the A-13, Black Dial is AN-5740.



    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5251.JPG 
Views:	4 
Size:	239.1 KB 
ID:	327270]Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5250.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	234.8 KB 
ID:	327272Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5249.JPG 
Views:	3 
Size:	242.6 KB 
ID:	327273Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5248.JPG 
Views:	4 
Size:	239.3 KB 
ID:	327274

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5252.JPG 
Views:	8 
Size:	237.4 KB 
ID:	327269Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5247.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	238.4 KB 
ID:	327275Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5246.JPG 
Views:	3 
Size:	238.4 KB 
ID:	327276Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5245.JPG 
Views:	4 
Size:	241.0 KB 
ID:	327277Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5244.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	236.8 KB 
ID:	327278Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN5243.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	240.2 KB 
ID:	327279

    Both of these watches have the Hack feature.

    White dial is # 39,516,133 and is Marked U.S.Army A.C.

    Info on back of case is hard to read because the stamping is very light except for the AC263 triangle at the top. I am glad to see another example because I thought it had a replacement bow.

    U.S. Army A.C.Watch Navagation Master Type A-13Ser. No. 41-826 Ord. No.W535AC-18210 Spec. No.94-27968 Mfg. Part No.1767 Elgin


    Black dial is # 42,078,191 and movement is not marked.

    Case back info is,

    AN-5740 MFRS.Part No. 1790 Cont. No. W535-40-37880 Ser. No. AF- 43-9296
    Elgin
    Member Chapter 149

Similar Threads

  1. waltham "weems navigation watch"
    By Eric Kroon in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 12-21-2016, 07:43 PM
  2. Hamilton Master Navigation Watch reconditioned.
    By DRINFEAL in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 11-16-2016, 03:51 PM
  3. Elgin A-13 Master Navigation Watch
    By grtnev in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-28-2016, 07:58 PM
  4. Hamilton, "Master Navigation Watch"
    By Robert Sweet in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-01-2009, 06:39 PM
  5. elgin 'the master' pocket watch
    By John F in forum American Pocket Watches
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-22-2002, 03:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •