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  1. #16
    Registered user. tok-tokkie's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Phil Burman)

    The information that the Microset gives is fabulous. I am not referring to the brilliant consistency of your clock but to be able to see how the rate of the pendulum changes on each & every swing.

    On your escape when is the impulse applied to the pendulum? As it passes through zero (center of swing and dead point when pendulum is stationary)?

  2. #17
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: tok-tokkie)

    I'm quite new to clock construction but yes I agree, if a person is serious about working with the construction of a precision regulator then the Microset with software, environment sensors and GPS module seems to me to be virtually essential, even if you have to beg, borrow or steal to get it.

    Yes the impulse is applied at zero amplitude (centre of swing). I double checked it on the simulation here :

    http://www.clockwatch.de/index.html?...ec/hem/hal.htm

    From the menu on the left select: Theory – Escapements – Detached - Strasser

    Phil

  3. #18

    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Quote Originally Posted by novicetimekeeper View Post
    Is that why regulators look like that? I had always assumed it was so that they were easier to read accurately. Is there an advantage in accuracy by excluding the motion work needed to get all the hands coaxial?
    I am not offering this as an absolute truth. Simply passing along what I was told years ago as to why regulators had separated hands on their dials.

    When regulators were used for extremely accurate time measuring they were used as a support for various research/experiments such as astronomy. Seconds were usually the most important function of a clock. The experimenters were not necessarily 'clock people' and quickly glancing at the clock to record a specific second was made easier (less chance for confusion) by having separated hands for the functions.

    Some precision clocks with separated hands had motion work for the hour hand and some did not. The motion work made setting the clock simpler by allowing the hour hand to keep in step with the minute hand. Those w/o motion work require the resetting of the hour hand if much change is to be made to the minute hand.

    This brings me to a question for Phil.

    Do you have a plan for how you are going to mount the hour hand? It looks to me that if you mount it on the winding shaft for the barrel, it will rotate along with the winding crank.

    This is not a criticism, I'm just curious.

    I am also impressed by you results w/the Microset!

    "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk." - Thomas Edison
    Best wishes to Ya'll. Sincerely, Jim

  4. #19
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: jhe.1973)

    Quote Originally Posted by jhe.1973 View Post
    Do you have a plan for how you are going to mount the hour hand? It looks to me that if you mount it on the winding shaft for the barrel, it will rotate along with the winding crank.
    Well spotted, Yes I didn't fully comprehend the implications when I when ahead with building the prototype. There is a point that comes when I'm just itching to get start on making parts and stop procrastinating over the design.

    I have seen a regulator somewhere that drove the hour hand on the same axis as the drum arbour. As the drum also includes the maintaining wheel assembly I think the only way to do it is to turn the whole wheel/drum assemble around so that the great wheel with maintaining assembly is at of the movement of the movement. Then take a cannon off the great wheel supported on a bearing in the front plate, with the drum winding arbour through the centre of the cannon. This will require some rejigging of the assembly due to the change in winding direction. I did some rough sketches and it looked like it would work OK. I would be interested comments on this and any other alternatives. However, this modification may be rendered unnecessary as I also have another side issue in that the movement is currently only an 8 day. The final intention was/is a 31 day and to achieve this it looks like I will need to move the drum/maintaining wheel assembly to the side and include and additional wheel and pinion on a new hour hand arbour. This is in order to achieve the 31 day within the available drop.

    I’ve purposely kept the movement of the prototype as simple as possible in order to keep maximum focus on the precision.

    As I'm only a beginner and this is my first one second weight driven movement I don't know if the precision shown in the Microset graph is what I should expect straight off?

  5. #20
    Registered user. tok-tokkie's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Phil Burman)

    About the separate dials for hrs/mins/secs. I have an interest in old buildings. I was on a tour of the local Royal Observatory recently. They have a museum which includes a working Reifler regulator from 1910. Ian Glass, a retired astronomer, was our guide. He was instrumental in establishing the museum and has written a book about the observatory (and several others). Before his talk & tour I said to him I was particularly interested in any mechanical clocks. He simply said there were a couple. So I was absolutely delighted to come across the Reifler. It is driven by a 30 second remontoire which is rewound electrically. The remontoire was geared directly to the escape wheel arbor. The train down to the minute and hour hands transmitted only motion - no power was running through them.


    Ian Glass said that to make a really accurate transit sighting (transit is time that a star – or the sun – passes absolutely directly overhead when viewed through an astronomical telescope mounted so it can swing on the line of longitude but it can not swing the other way at all. To measure the time of transit the astronomical regulator is mounted close by so the astronomer can hear the seconds tick. Ian went on to say that they could actually time it to a tenth of a second. But each astronomer had to have his personal tenth second estimation calibrated – so that it was accurate.


    Here is the Wiki page on the Reifler escape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riefler_escapement It includes a list of the Reiflers on public display and the local one is not included. I intend asking Ian if i may add it.
    This thread is about the Strasser and Haldimann escpaes. This source http://www.historische-zeitmesser.de...n_01_2014.html includes this


    Although the firms of Strasser & Rohde and Riefler were competitors when it came to supplying the national observatories (e.g. in Potsdam) with regulators they corresponded with each other. It has been suggested, as the author relates, that Riefler's invention of the detached spring escapement prompted Strasser to invent a Glashütte alternative. His definitive version is the result of a clockmaker rather than of an engineer and equally good (if not better - reviewer. Although after the invention of his detached escapement Strasser did concede that the dead beat escapement was just as good!). For the first time Jürgen Ermert has been able to trace the development of this escapement. Misleadingly the first version was referred to as a gravity escapement by Strasser (Schwerkrafthemmung), which it is not. This is the first time that the precursor of the Strasser escapement has been discussed in horological literatur and copiously illustrated.

    The link to the animation of the Haldimann escape points out that although the Haldiman looks similar to the Reifler & Strasser escapes it is functionally different and superior.
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    Last edited by tok-tokkie; 02-23-2017 at 03:17 AM.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Just a short post to show the new bob/pendulum in brass, stainless steel and an invar 36 rod. This has replaced the previous prototype mild steel one and now includes temperature compensation via a stainless steel tube sitting on the regulation nut and supporting the bob at its’ mid-point. Also now included is a 5.5lb stainless steel drive weight.

    Phil

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #22
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Phil Burman)

    Cool
    Is it a calculated compensation or have you actually run it at a couple
    different temperatures to see how it is doing?
    Tinker Dwight

  8. #23
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Tinker Dwight)

    Both. I originally calculated the length and added 10mm to give me scope to home in based on observation. However due to my inexperience I didn't allow enough time for stabilisation consequently the compensator length appeared to be in error. Furthermore being a novice I also managed to confuse myself due to a coincidence that the room thermostat just happened to have a 1 hour cycle and that the clock had a inherent 1 hour rate variation due presumably to an anomaly with the 1 hour wheel. The upshot of this was that the thermostat variation matched the rate variation so I assume that the rate variation was due to this temperature variation. This gave me a calculated pendulum length of 5 meters in order to accommodate a calculated compensator length of 4 meters.

    So all of the above took me about a week but yesterday I finished a 24hr run with a maximum length compensator and tonight I am running a 24 hour test with the shortest compensator that fits with the length of thread available on the invar rod.

    Here's the plot from yesterday:

    blue is the pendulum amplitude -black is the rate - green is the room temperature

    PS: ingnore the values in the boxes at the top, I was using the gps module so they are not correct/relevant.
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    Last edited by Phil Burman; 03-07-2017 at 06:58 PM.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Phil Burman)

    A good start. I think I'd do some longer constant temperature runs first
    with about 12 hour soak.
    Then you can start looking at rate of change stuff.
    Tinker Dwight

  10. #25
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Tinker Dwight)

    What do you conclude from those traces?
    The compensator is the maximum possible so the compensation is expected to be excessive?
    As the temperature dropped the period of the pendulum also dropped - which corresponds to over compensation?
    But then what happened? The period reduced in a spike then stabilised.
    In that last stable section the rate varied from 0.000 020 to 0.000 026 sec. So the range was 0.000 006sec. That is 0.5sec/day.
    I have a clock where the daily variation is worse than that. But I have no idea what is usual. What daily change in rate with the temperature being 'reasonably' stable (I don't mean US style temperature control) would you anticipate.
    I recognize that this is a path you are still discovering.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Tinker Dwight)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker Dwight View Post
    A good start. I think I'd do some longer constant temperature runs first
    with about 12 hour soak.
    Then you can start looking at rate of change stuff.
    Tinker Dwight
    I think you are right, the trouble is I get too impatient, although I seem to be so far off at the moment that I would like to see a result with under compensation, then at least I know where I am and that the correct compensation is somewhere in between the two.

    The current run with the shortest compensator (not yet finished) appears to also be over compensated, so my plan is to make a small clamp for the invar rod and put it directly under the centre support of the bob, i.e. zero compensation, then I will at least know if the ball is actually in the park.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play

    Here's the plot for the shorter compensator. There seems to be a lot going on but one key point maybe that for the last part of the curve the rate recovers back to the starting point, which I think indicates less over compensation than the previous plot (or possibly zero). The somewhat massive initial drop in rate is surprising but I think it may be due to the pendulum being separately mounted on an alumimium backboard which is in intimate contact with the concrete wall, whereas the movement endplates are in free air, this will result in a differential expansion as the temperature changes. Also the backboard is bolted to the wall both top and bottom. If the bottom bolt predominates then as the temperature falls the pendulum will move down and the crutch will move up. This will change the degree of deflection of the upper suspension spring resulting in a change in input energy to the pendulum.

    Anyway I have now isolated the backboard from the wall with spaces and ensured that the backboard is firmly fixed to the wall by the top bolts, so that direction of movement of the board with temperature is matched by the end plates. We will see, it's running now.

    Phil

    PS: you have to remember that the recorded temperature is the instantaneous air temperature and may bear little relationship to the temperature of the various components of the clock.
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    Last edited by Phil Burman; 03-08-2017 at 10:03 AM.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Phil Burman)

    Here's the 16" dial with walnut frame. The dial needs some more work on the graining before silvering. There's a lot of separate steps in the engraving operation, one mistake and it's start all over again, as the reverse side of the dial can testify. I may redo it at some later stage but large lumps of brass can get expensive.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Phil

  14. #29

    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Phil Burman)

    Phil,
    Excellent job on the dial; very intricate. I can't wait to see it when it is silvered.
    Allan

  15. #30
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    Default Re: 1 second Regulator – state of play (By: Allan Wolff)

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Wolff View Post
    Phil,
    Excellent job on the dial; very intricate. I can't wait to see it when it is silvered.
    Allan
    Thanks Allan, at the moment I'm having trouble getting the right surface finish. The various engravings seem to affect how the wet and dry performs and it all looks a bit streaky. I did have to use a more course paper because of a number of scratches, maybe I just need to persevere with the 600 paper.

    Phil

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