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  1. #31
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Omexa)

    Hi Ray,

    The rollers look pretty much the same as any table roller, the variations are mostly in the banking, the shape of the impulse jewel, (more rarely the double pins like Marty's P&F), or the profile of the passing crescent or flat. The important part is establishing firm dates for the earliest appearance of these things.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  2. #32

    Default Re: Josh Johnson (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Hi, I am starting to think that my "Desbois and Wheeler"movement was originally built as a "Freesprung Table Roller" movement using a Frame that had the Boseley Regulator Scale on it. I can find no signs of it ever being converted. The Dust Cap has a small gap near the Balance Cock. I am not going to dismantle it to look at the Table Roller because it runs so nicely, I will leave it as it is. Regards Ray Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Omexa; 08-08-2016 at 03:18 PM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Josh Johnson (By: Omexa)

    I am fairly certain this is a later balance:
    1) It has "wings
    2) It has platinum meantime screws, A Bosley regulated balance is over its balance spring.
    3) The balance arms are down

    A lot of these were done in the 180's to 1910 to replace solid balances. The holes between the balance and old scale may have held the balance spring stud which was fixed to a separate part. the balance cock was likely filed down to accommodate the very nice new spring stud which features a fine beat adjuster which is much later than the rest of the watch.

    This was not foul play, but rather an effort to extend the life of a fine old timepiece. It is a legitimate part of its history,
    Last edited by Dr. Jon; 08-08-2016 at 05:04 PM.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Allan C. Purcell)

    Hi Dr. Jon, the "The holes between the balance and old scale may have held the balance spring stud" these are where the Banking Pins are. There are no spare Holes. Regards RayClick image for larger version. 

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  5. #35
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Omexa)

    I have been trying to follow this discussion, but I am confused. I think I know what a single roller and double roller escapement are. I have always thought that a table roller was a single roller with a flat disk for the roller but it sounds like something else. The term "single table roller" implies to me that there might be a "double table roller" also. Is there an illustration by David Penney or some other drawing that shows what this is?
    Tom McIntyre Click me.
    If you don't learn to laugh at trouble,
    you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old.
    Will Rogers

  6. #36

    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: gmorse)

    Hi Tom, I am glad that I am not the only person who is confused. From Tom: "Is there an illustration by David Penney or some other drawing that shows what this is?" Regards Ray

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Omexa)

    Thanks for the correction. My error on the holes does not change the balance and stud being later. From the other photos I see that the balance stud is fixed under the balance cock and I should have observed that before. Most lever watches of that era had the stud mounted on a separate part from tehbalance cock, another sign of likely conversion, i.e the spring is mounted directly to the balance cock.

    My understanding of the terminology is that a table roller is a single roller and the term specifies a particular English single roller in which the roller table is large and flat like a table. I have no encountered the term "Single table roller" before this.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Allan C. Purcell)

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	312165Hi Dr. Jon, "My error on the holes does not change the balance and stud being later." I agree with you that the Balance and Stud are later. I have never seen this Stud arrangement before. The Cut out for the Stud is Gilded. Regards Ray
    Last edited by Omexa; 08-08-2016 at 11:04 PM.

  9. #39
    Registered User Jerry Treiman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Omexa)

    I have shown this watch before, but it seems relevant here. It is apparently a Liverpool movement (based on style and finish), although it is marked for an American retailer. It has a simple single table roller. The original case bears a Chester hallmark for 1830.

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    Jerry Treiman, NAWCC member since 1971
    Charter member of Pocket Horology Chapter 174

  10. #40
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Omexa)

    Hi Ray,

    Is there any sign that the cutout in the balance cock table was made after it was gilt?

    I agree that the balance does look rather too small for the rest of the top plate arrangement, but if it was originally undersprung the position of the stud will be hidden underneath the balance, and the aperture in the plate will be circular to accept the Bosley regulator. Can you post a picture of the cap, please?

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  11. #41
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Omexa)

    Hi Ray,

    This is what we're all talking about. It's the balance from Oliver's Leroux, which was converted to a lever some time later, in the 19th century.

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    The impulse jewel in this one is cylindrical, which was fairly common, together with elliptical and triangular ones, before the "D" shape was finally settled on as the best shape.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  12. #42
    Registered User Jerry Treiman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: gmorse)

    Another possible early STR movement I have is signed "Rob't Roskell -- No.6571 -- London". It is a full-plate movement. ... unfortunately no case.
    I can post pictures tomorrow if it sounds interesting.
    Jerry Treiman, NAWCC member since 1971
    Charter member of Pocket Horology Chapter 174

  13. #43
    Registered User Allan C. Purcell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Jerry Treiman)

    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #44
    Registered User Allan C. Purcell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Jerry Treiman)

    Sorry I posted to quick. I have diograms from David Penney will post later.

    Allan

  15. #45
    Registered User Allan C. Purcell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early Single Table Roller Escapements (By: Allan C. Purcell)

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    This diagram by Davied Penney demonstrates and early STR with passing flat, and has G. says could also have a cresent shape. Notice too the rounded end of the lever fork. The DUMPER above has these rounded ends too. There are in this period from 1818 to 1840 many variations, though a quick look between the plates will tell it is an STR, and you would not notice the variations. Its sad to say none of these escapements were patented. You will find this style above by other makers. Ask Davied Penney or look at his archive on the net.
    Thanks to you all for taking an interest. Oh and please post the Roskell it sounds interesting.
    Allan.
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