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  1. #1
    Registered user. PJQL's Avatar
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    Default Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s?

    Hi all,

    This piece is a recent purchase. It is a Liverpool fusee marked Robt Roskell. Nicely jewelled, and engraved with the 'Liver' bird on the balance cock. The escapement is not a Massey, but also does not have a normal conventional staff. I've tried to show this in the photos...is this called a double roller?

    Having read some recent input re the Roskell family, I am assuming that this movement was probably made by a much later family member or someone connected with them......or not, as the case may be! I'm guessing mid to late 1800s?

    It is cased in what I think might be the body of a small desk clock housing...the front is hinged and opens from a small knob at the side. All in all a rather attractive thing, the casing of which I would like to repair/restore..and perhaps locate in a suitable wooden frame.

    Regards

    Piers
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    Piers Lawrence

    'In the end, time makes fools of us all...some more than others.'

  2. #2
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: PJQL)

    Hi Piers,

    This looks like a normal English lever table roller as far as I can see, although it is set rather lower than usual.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: gmorse)

    Thanks Graham,

    Would there be a specific reason for this?

    Piers
    Piers Lawrence

    'In the end, time makes fools of us all...some more than others.'

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: PJQL)

    To me the countersunk cock-screw suggests a date no later than 1860 – early enough for the compensated balance still to be a fairly unusual feature. The engraving on the dial seems unusually well executed.

    Oliver Mundy.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: PJQL)

    Hi Piers,

    Try Thread: Hunt & Roskell

    Regards,

    PL

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: PapaLouies)

    Thanks PL,

    An exhaustive and exhausting thread...but hats off to Davey G, (and of course Martin :-) )..for all the information unearthed.

    I'd tentatively plump for Robert Jnr for my example.....I think....

    Piers
    Piers Lawrence

    'In the end, time makes fools of us all...some more than others.'

  7. #7
    Registered User Allan C. Purcell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: PJQL)

    Its a bit late I know-but better late than never. 35593 is in a Silver Hallmarked case for Chester 1821/22-38653 is in a 18K gold case Hallmarked Chester 1825/26.I have list from 509 1799 to 69896 c1860. Plus 33 Chronometers from 460 to 1789/69734 So c1828
    to c1870. Mostly with photographs. Though more and more come to light nearly every day. If you want you Roskell dated just ask. The two sets of numers for later Roskell chronometers are-the first four the chronometer number the second five numbers were the total items sold by the business.

    Consider a man without a watch:he is like a soda without a scotch.

    I too have given some thought to TIME. Only two things define time-the big bang and the birth of mankind to measure the echo´s.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: Allan C. Purcell)

    Allan: I have Roskell # 22371. It is a pair cased rack lever. Inner case has no serial number, and is hallmarked for Chester 1813. Maker's initials hard to make out but could be NL. Outer case also has no serial number, also hallmarked for Chester 1815. Maker's initials PM? or RM? I am guessing on the date letters, could be 1835 and 1837! Serial number seems to indicate earlier dates. Any thoughts?

    Jerry Freedman

  9. #9
    Registered User Allan C. Purcell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: Jerry Freedman)

    Hello Jerry,
    My opinion on Pair cased watches for Roskell pocket watches at that time lean toward a marraige or at best a re-case. Roskell was making up to the early 1820´s Rack levers, with the odd English Cylinder with a few Massey escapements. These were
    in consular cases. I can imagine some older people from the country who wanted a watch could have asked for a pair case because their parents had one, but the main drive was to have a watch that could tell you the time far better than a verge (Then always in a paircase).Plus a paircase looks good-even to-day. (Another thought they could have put the new escapement into the purchasers old pair case)?? That brings us onto the watch number 22371. Very interesting when you consider that in my records No.10152 is Chester 1815 (Wound through the dial and described as a Lever in Melbourne Museum).The next numbered watch is 20850 also Chester 1815. What happened to the nine thousand in-between??
    Then comes the following Hallmarked watches
    20997 Chester 1815 Gold Case RACK Lever
    22371 Your watch
    22668 Chester 1835 Gold case RACK Lever
    23687 Chester 1836 Silver Case RACK Lever
    24423 Chester 1815 NAWCC Board
    24845Chester 1837 Silver Case RACk with slides.
    I think you are begining to see the problems involved here Jerry- please believe me when I say I am trying to help-being negative helps no one. My thoughts are your watch could be has you say, 1835-37.
    To finnish for now I have sent the editor a copy of my research on Roskell if you ask her she might send it on to you-I have no objection.

  10. #10
    Registered User gmorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: PJQL)

    Hi Piers,

    Although the cock foot is marked "Patent", the escapement is definitely an English lever, with table roller and parallel-sided lever.

    Regards,

    Graham

    "Ut tensio, sic vis" - Robert Hooke

  11. #11

    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: gmorse)

    Allan: I have a list of Roskell numbers copied from one of the British journals. It show numbers 21544 and 21563 as dating from 1810 and before 1818. Now I am confused. My rack lever has slides and patent on the balance cock.

    Jerry Freedman

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: gmorse)

    Thanks Graham,

    Appreciated.

    Piers
    Piers Lawrence

    'In the end, time makes fools of us all...some more than others.'

  13. #13
    Registered User Allan C. Purcell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: Jerry Freedman)

    Jerry: I only used watches from my lists that are Hallmarked. Like I said I have sent my list to the Editor, but I have not heard from her department. my E-Mail address is allan.Purcell@web.de if you want a copy.
    I have since writing found ten more hallmarked Roskell watches. I do not include Swiss fakes or anything that I don´t feel are or were made by the Roskell firm.
    Best wishes,
    Allan.

  14. #14
    Registered User Allan C. Purcell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: Allan C. Purcell)

    Jerry I have gone through my lists again, and I dont have 21544 or 21563. Have you got photographs? Are they in hallmarked cases? I have aslo looked at Roskell watches in the NAWCC Museum, they have 21379, 21458 and 25400, but only cicia dates 1813 1815 and 1815. it is obvious there needs more work on these earlier numbers. I will keep at it. I also list their chronometers, but these too are hard to date. 460 tp 850 are single numbers after that they have a double number, the first I have is113/26160. The first three are the chronometer number the others are items sold by the business at that time, there could, maybe, a way to work out dates if we knew the year the busness sold 26160 items??
    Allan.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Robert Roskell Liverpool movement...perhaps later 1880s? (By: Allan C. Purcell)

    Allan: The list does not contain any case information. The list just shows rack levers by Litherland and his partners and Roskell rack levers. I believe the list came from the AHI journal.

    Jerry

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