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  1. #16

    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Nick,


    Here's a picture of Mr Winne and his clock.



    Ralph
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  2. #17

    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: Ralph)

    Excellent Ralph. If an opportunity arises like that you have to take it.

    I've never managed that.

    I have bought a watch because it has the same signature as a clock I own, but I know nothing about formr owners of my collection apart from an anonymous note on history of one of my longcase.
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  3. #18
    Registered user. Chris Radano's Avatar
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    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    I have an 18th c. large Maltese mural clock, Chinese lacquer, that was owned by the Governor of Malta - Sir Francis Grenfell.

    http://www.grenfellhistory.co.uk/bio...e_grenfell.php

    Taken from the biography in the link, "After Kitchener's victory of Omdurman (2 September 1898), Grenfell in the following January was appointed governor and commander-in-chief of Malta. There he proved a successful governor, displaying much interest in the antiquities of the island and in the methods of cultivation in use. "

    Here is the clock. The original 2-weight, 30 hour movement, was replaced with an English 8-day single fusee.
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  4. #19
    Registered user. Chris Radano's Avatar
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    Default Re: How important is provenance to you?

    Provenance is not something I necessarily seek, but it is useful. Among other things, it provides a window into the past, offering insight into how people cared for their clocks, and dating clocks and movements.

    The above clock I did not buy for the provenance, but the history is certainly welcomed. I actually thought the clock was possibly an English Act of Parliament clock, that was a marriage. I had not been aware of Maltese clocks before this purchase. And Grenfell actually did make the clock more practical by replacing the movement, which would have been cumbersome. Plus, the fusee can be dated to c. 1900...which is not a big deal, but at this point it becomes difficult to date a single fusee by appearance.

    I do have the original hands, in this photo they're not attached. Probably will move this clock to the living room in the near future.

  5. #20

    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: Chris Radano)

    Chris, that continues to be an interesting clock... You don't see many of them around....at least not in the states. Ralph

  6. #21
    Forums Administrator harold bain's Avatar
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    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: Chris Radano)

    We do see too many who think a presentation Plaque is something to remove if it was not presented to you. This is the history of the clock and should always be left with it, even if you think it detracts from its appearance.
    harold bain, Member ch 33
    "If it won't "tick",
    let me "tock" to it"

  7. #22
    Registered User FDelGreco's Avatar
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    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: harold bain)

    I have a small time-only tower clock with an interesting provenance, with the account recorded in the Falkirk, Scotland historical ledger. A town hall was built in Falkirk in the early 1890s. They couldn’t afford a clock so the hole where the dial would go was simply boarded up. Hugh MacPherson, a business man, passed by the town hall daily and got sick of looking at the boarded up hole. So he bought the town a tower clock. The clock has a tag on it commemorating the gift in 1894.

    The building has since been torn down.

    Frank
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  8. #23

    Default Re: How important is provenance to you?

    Here's another American tallcase with an apparent history. I picked it up years ago at auction. The dial is signed Joseph Eberman, Lancaster. In side the door, their is a hand inscribed paper, that delineates the ownership over the clock over the years. For many years, I tried to understand the sequence of owners per the list and could never tie it up. Recently, with the help of the internet, and some license interpreting the list, ...........





    I think I finally cracked the provenance code on the Eberman. It was associated with one of the Landis families in Lancaster... this being based off the paper taped inside the door. of the clock.

    It looks like John was the original buyer, it went to his son Jacob H Landis, to his son John Herr Landis, to his daughter AnnaMary Landis Atlee, who was married to (Judge) Benjamin C Atlee... a fairly important guy. All this mostly in Millersville.

    It looks like Anna, apparently childless, must have given the clock to another heir, Nelson S Landis... but then later it looks like a non-family owner bought the clock sort of confusing at the end . The beginning of the list looks like the scribe made a typo error and the real lineage starts after the crossout.

    I still have some loose ends with Nelson. I'm trying to figure out where he fits.



    Ralph
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  9. #24

    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: Ralph)

    Interesting. It would be interesting to see what you get when you connect all the dots, Ralph.

    Ron

  10. #25

    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: FDelGreco)

    Quote Originally Posted by FDelGreco View Post
    I have a small time-only tower clock with an interesting provenance, with the account recorded in the Falkirk, Scotland historical ledger. A town hall was built in Falkirk in the early 1890s. They couldn’t afford a clock so the hole where the dial would go was simply boarded up. Hugh MacPherson, a business man, passed by the town hall daily and got sick of looking at the boarded up hole. So he bought the town a tower clock. The clock has a tag on it commemorating the gift in 1894.

    The building has since been torn down.

    Frank

    How long did his generous gift last?
    Nick, lots to learn, late starter.

  11. #26
    Registered User FDelGreco's Avatar
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    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: novicetimekeeper)

    Quote Originally Posted by novicetimekeeper View Post
    How long did his generous gift last?
    Not sure. Somewhere I have the date when the building was torn down, but can't find it right now.

    Frank

  12. #27
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    Default Re: How important is provenance to you? (By: FDelGreco)

    I collect watches mostly although I have a few clocks. I love tracking teh provenance of my watches. I collect high grade watches and find that the people who personalized these left a record of their lives in various public media.

    I have a watch that after a lot of decoding I found to have belonged to teh man who arranged the financing to biong the Statue of Liberty to America. I have learned about some very interesting but otherwise little known aspects of history.



    Another belonged to very well regarded probate judge who died without a will.

    I have dug up some very moving stories from researching the provenance of my personalized watches.

    You can't wear all the watches and putting them in the vault is not much fun so I find the tracking down the history of their previous owners adds a lot of enjoyment.

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