Help Identifying 1700's pocket watch

[sculptetc]

Can anyone out ther help ID this watch? The back of the inner case has the initials KF. The back of the outer case has some kind of worn dark red coating encircled by the same type of silver studs seen around the rim of the front outside case. The words; Landsberg Franz Paul Schuster are insribed around the rim of the watch movement which is either brass or gold, How do I tell which?
(I think Landsberg refers to landsberg Austria, which was part of Bavaria in the 1700s)

Thanks,

Mike










[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 05-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 05-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 05-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 06-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 06-02-2002).]

[sculptetc]

Can anyone out ther help ID this watch? The back of the inner case has the initials KF. The back of the outer case has some kind of worn dark red coating encircled by the same type of silver studs seen around the rim of the front outside case. The words; Landsberg Franz Paul Schuster are insribed around the rim of the watch movement which is either brass or gold, How do I tell which?
(I think Landsberg refers to landsberg Austria, which was part of Bavaria in the 1700s)

Thanks,

Mike










[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 05-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 05-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 05-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 06-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 06-02-2002).]

[Jeff Hess]

Cool watch! Could be anything. Could be an early Austrian watch. Could be a Swiss watch made for the Austrian market. Can you post clearer pics and also pics of the pillars? Jeff Hess

[Oliver Mundy]

The fact that it is wound from the back like an English watch, rather than through the dial, seems to favour the idea that it is actually of Austrian make; the industry there is said to have been strongly influenced by English practices in the 1700s.

The ?watch-paper? is curious: part of a Knave (Jack) of Leaves, a playing-card belonging to a pattern used in Bohemia and the Sudetenland.

[sculptetc]

Hello Jeff and Oliver,
Wanted to say 'thanks' for the prompt reply. I will get some clearer pics for you. the note about the playing card was fascinating.
(Is the card from the 1700's?)
The watch is missing the key so don't know if it works. (That may be a good thing, If it was lost a long time ago it could mean no one has been messing with it and winding it) Any idea about the mechanism being brass or gold? How can it be identified?
Also the watchmakers name is 'Schuster', not Schumer. My mistake. Don't know if that makes a difference or not.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Jeff Hess]

Man the Brits know their stuff! Oliver, we need more of you guys on here!

Oliver makes some good points. I cannot find a schuster in Britens other than Paulus who dies in 1634 and was a major watchmaker of note. If this is your guy, well, you will RULE on this watch. Doesnlt look anywhere near that old though from your pics. Can't wait to see the other pics! Jeff Hess

[cogito]

The silver watch movement engraving clearly depicts the Russian czarist seal of the Romanoff family. The Romanoff double-headed eagle with crown, septer, and cross topped globe (there's a specific name for this object, but it escapes me now) was reserved only for state sanctioned items or family pieces. The Romanoff dynasty ruled Russia from the mid-1600s till 1917, when the Bolshevic Revolution resulted in a complete abandonment of the monarchy. Based upon the construction and age of the watch, this piece may very well have been produced around the time of Peter the Great.

Exciting, hunh? Now, the real question...was this silver(?) Romanoff seal added to a relatively common fusee to fool and decieve or is original to the watch? A royal watch would have been much more ornate in it's case construction and materials (just saw a Romanoff watch in Memphis, TN at a major exhibition and the case was made of agate and diamonds with a relatively uninspiring early 19th century English fusee movement), so I'm a bit suspicious of the seal. Can you tell us more about the movement? Pictures of the movement from the side? Any Russian case marks?

Gotta love a watch mystery...nice piece, BTW.

Regards,
Jeff Browndyke
Mystic, CT

[Oliver Mundy]

According to Baillie, there was a Franz Schüster working in Vienna in 1818. This date seems a little too late, but not very much so, since the watch has a Bosley-type regulator (with a pointer and a graduated scale, as opposed to the old ?Tompion? pattern with a steel disc), and this is rarely seen before about 1780.

The double-headed eagle could just as well be an Austrian imperial symbol as a Russian one; in the time of Franz II, the last Holy Roman Emperor (1792-1806) a sword and an orb (that is the name of the round thing) were added to the Austrian eagle, making it very similar to the Russian arms. I cannot quite see whether the object in the eagle's right claw is a sceptre (which as Cogito says would indicate Russia) or a sword (Austria); Mike, can you clarify?

[This message has been edited by Oliver Mundy (edited 06-01-2002).]

[sculptetc]

Just posted more pics. The other claw looks like a sword. the initals KF are on the back of the inner watch case. This is amazing. You guys are a terrific resource. So glad to see the internet being used for something besides smut.
Thanks again,
Mike

[Barry G]

So glad to see the internet being used for something besides smut.
[HR][HR]

I don't know about that... I personally find these old watches VERY sexy!



Barry

------------------
My Online Pocket Watch Collection

[Jeff Hess]

Man, Oliver rules!

Is it just me or has the addition of the Brits and their studious nature regarding verge and older stuff on the NAWCC boards re-ignited interest in this stuff?

Keep it coming!

[Jeff Hess]

Wayne,

Yeah. When a verge goes bad here in the USA we Americans get all befuddled. Most of us anyway.

I remember when I first started collecting pockets in the early 70's, the words "Swiss" or "Fusee" were spoken with a snear akin to one used when one came upon a foul odor. How ignorant we all were! And conversely, when I used to canvass the flea markets in the early 80's in the UK for early Walthams (and occasionally Elgins, Rockfords, Illinois and even Tremonts!) the Brits just HATED Walthams. How times have changed.

And the Brits can fix ANYTHING! Cases, silverwork, new lid? no problem. New dial? piece of cake. Enamel work? Sure! These guys have some of the best artisans in the world.

Glad they are here! Jeff Hess

[cogito]

I suspect Oliver is right about the Austrian origin. The maker's name and fact that the septer is likely a sword appears to cinch it.

I wonder, though, how loose the Austrian government was at the time in allowing the royal seal/emblem to be depicted on items. The watch paper, in combination with the movement seal, suggests a military connection...maybe a high-ranking official in the Austrian military?

BTW - I've never seen movement pillars like the ones on this piece before. Are all of them 1/2 turned, giving the "winding" effect like that of the one you have in your picture?

Regards,
Jeff Browndyke
Mystic, CT

[sculptetc]

HI Guys,
I have been reading the feedback and it is fascinating. Back when I was getting married, mid 70's, the trade I wanted to enter was watch repair. A new baby and the need to get straight into the job market changed the plan but have never lost the fascinaion with watches. (Just never had time/money to follow it). I've ncluded a picture of the back of the watch with the initials and if these pics are getting burdensome to download let me know.
>>>>>I'd like to track down and contact the Vienna watch guilds that another email corresponder mentioned. Anyone got any leads?

Thanks again,

Mike

[This message has been edited by sculptetc (edited 06-02-2002).]