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  1. #16
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo (By: Albra)

    Yes, you're right, it is difficult to stablish when and which kind of machines were employed by German case and clockmakers. Not like in the Connecticut clock industry, where machines were in full use rather early in the nineteenth century...
    About this one, I forgot to mention that detail. Yes, as you say, this kind of clock was specially intended for British market and I bought it from England, indeed.
    What I ignore is if that information can help to date it. Does it?

    Aitor
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  2. #17

    Default Re: Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo (By: ballistarius)

    No, about the age says nothing , but on the Black Forest clockmakers who worked for export.

    For the German market , the BF clockmakers had all kinds of traders who have bought them the clocks. In the export that was usually different. For England , Russia, Turkey the BF clockmakers had only one "agent" and that was very often a relative. This agent now wanted to purchase all kinds of clocks from a clockmaker or a family of clockmakers and sell .

    We know ( but I do not have it ) a catalog of Ketterer from 1901 in which more than 100 different clocks were offered. This proves that Ketterer mounted into every conceivable case of a clock from a manufacturer that provided the case with a movement and could deliver it to England. But that still says nothing about the farm size, ( = number of workers ) , no equipment or the degree of division of labor. But that Ketterer could supply all kinds of clocks!

    I am not an expert on Ketterer clocks, but I expect in high quality Ketterer clocks fusee -movements, but in common Cockoos most likely related cast movements of Burger ( Schonach ) or Siedle ( Triberg )

    Enjoy your clock! Yes, it´s a beautiful one! But please take care about the painting in the heat of Spain!

    albra

  3. #18
    Forums Administrator harold bain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo (By: Albra)

    I find it quite interesting that in America, wooden movement clocks were no longer made after about 1840, after the Jerome brothers came out with cheaply made brass movements to take their place. Yet there seems to be no easily seen cutoff date for wooden movement clocks in Germany. Even with American type movements being made by major makers like Junghans. Was brass that expensive that a wooden movement clock could be made cheaper? Any ideas about this Albra?
    Also, one of the negatives with wooden movement clocks in America was that they couldn't be shipped due to warping, whereas brass didn't have this problem, and ended up being shipped pretty much everywhere in the world. Wasn't this also a problem with German wooden works clocks?
    harold bain, Member ch 33
    "If it won't "tick",
    let me "tock" to it"

  4. #19

    Default Re: Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo (By: harold bain)

    Harold, Yes, The brass was more money in the higher end clocks Like Ketterer or Beha, I have original catalogs showing the brass movement in the 8 day clocks as a pretty hefty upgrade.
    And Albra.. thanks for sharing. Interesting as usual.

    Ballistarias: The subtle details are what i go by in determining a likely age, its usually not exact, but its pretty good.
    In Beha clocks for example there are close records kept and observing the details of a KNOWN and factory dated clock, one can compare the details to others not known and dial in a pretty close date. some of their details changed very slightly, and over the years allowing a rendering to be made.. Again its not exact, but in a case like this, where there is not exact record showing the exact clock leaving the floor, its what we have to go by.
    These methods of dating i was given first: by my own observations, and also by some of the truly great researchers, with collections far beyond my own.. many of whom are published and very well known and respected.

  5. #20

    Default Re: Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo (By: harold bain)

    Quote Originally Posted by harold bain View Post
    I find it quite interesting that in America, wooden movement clocks were no longer made after about 1840, after the Jerome brothers came out with cheaply made brass movements to take their place. Yet there seems to be no easily seen cutoff date for wooden movement clocks in Germany. Even with American type movements being made by major makers like Junghans. Was brass that expensive that a wooden movement clock could be made cheaper? Any ideas about this Albra?
    Also, one of the negatives with wooden movement clocks in America was that they couldn't be shipped due to warping, whereas brass didn't have this problem, and ended up being shipped pretty much everywhere in the world. Wasn't this also a problem with German wooden works clocks?
    Harold , those are interesting questions! But unfortunately, I am very little familiar with the american conditions. Our veteran Doug Stevenson a few years ago wrote an article and I think most of your questions can be explained by different distribution channels in the U.S. and Germany :

    In Germany , BF-manufacturers have paid attention to long-term trade relations. Very often family members have taken over the distribution of the clocks. In America, there was not this: The " Sam Slicks " came to Connecticut and took 10 clocks of Gilbert and sold , the next time they took 10 clocks of Waterbury. Depending on what seemed to them favorable. As Chauncey and Noble Jerome have made their first movements entirely of brass , they have provided from one day to the American clock market on its head. Something like this would not have been possible in Germany!

    Second: The BF manufacturer in general were spezialised to a single market , supplying this market. But the markets were different : The world best clocks have made at the end of the 17th Century the English and the French. Black Forest clocks were indeed cheap, but you must have in mind : What can be sold? And in England and France at a very early wooden clocks were no longer be sold . In contrast, however, in Russia and Austria / Hungary: These markets were much longer supplied with wood clocks. The different markets will have also made sure that a clockmaker have even longer made clocks with timber, than another.
    Another point:
    We must not forget how far Germany in its technological development was returned to France: Still in 1850, there was no brass foundry in Württemberg. In Baden there were some brass foundries, but the cast was so bad that the Uhrmacherschule Furtwangen organized scholarships by France to produce better cast brass in Baden. And as we all know: In comparison, the French have been about 100 years their clocks parts are no longer cast in 1850, but punched!


    For transportation: I think one had to gain experience, such as clocks must be packed for sea transport. The first shipped American clocks to Europe nearly all were broken: The cases were from the glue, the movements were eroded of the sea air.

    But we have very far removed us from the clock of Balistarius. So we finish our debate.

    Balistarius, once again: Congrats to your very nice clock!

    albra

  6. #21
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo (By: ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG)

    No concern about a little off-topic chat on American WW and BF clocks. I collect both of them!
    No concern at all about 'hot' Spain either. Where I live, the Northern coast, climate is very akin to that of South England... rainy and, sometimes, miserable
    I am much more afraid of central heating in my flat: Humidity is descending to 30% and this is the first winter this clock will spend with me

    Aitor
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  7. #22
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Update (By: ballistarius)

    Hello,

    The clock returned home after being overhauled by the clock repairer. Now I've sent the case to the restorer to have all the veneer and paint issues corrected and to have the new bird door suitably ebonized and painted.

    The movement is now caseless but happily ticking and cuckooing on a bookshelf. It's been the moment for installing on it the two embossed brass bands it lacked and I purchased later (expensive and quarrelsome auction for such a tiny items).
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards,

    Aitor
    Last edited by Bill Stuntz; 02-26-2017 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Replace BIG photos w/ expandable thumbnails
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  8. #23
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Update: Case restored (By: ballistarius)

    Well, three years after I purchased it, my Ketterer is finally fully restored
    I've fetched the case from the restorer's and put the movement inside again .
    The ugly screws piercing the enamelled dial have been suppresed and the holes masked. The missing painted decoration at the skirt has been re-done:


    The bird's door has been ebonized and painted with a suitable motif (Many thanks to Jeff and the Piekarski brothers for supplying models)


    The movement is inside its case after a long time. Let's see if the bird gets used to be caged again...

    Aitor
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    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  9. #24
    Registered user. gleber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Case restored (By: ballistarius)

    A true Masterpiece - original and the restoration! And you have a lot more patience than I have.

    Tom

  10. #25
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Case restored (By: gleber)

    Many thanks, Tom!
    Patience is the only thing I'm not in short supply. I'd wish I had more room for clocks and more money...

    Aitor
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  11. #26
    Registered User new2clocks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Case restored (By: ballistarius)

    Nice work! Congrats and enjoy!

    Regards.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Update: Case restored (By: new2clocks)

    Wow, that looks greath! What a perfect job has been done on this clock. This clock has found the right owner, congrats!!

  13. #28
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo (By: Albra)

    Many thanks, folks!
    This time, except for nailing the embossed brass bands, my only task has been to pay the bills!

    Aitor
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

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