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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: 4thdimension)

    Quote Originally Posted by 4thdimension View Post
    This begs the question-What is the earliest recorded American P.L.? I've had an 1850's Lange signed for a S.F. jeweler but this Waltham is the oldest all-U.S. P.L. I've heard of. -Cort
    SEEMS 11977 IS OLDEST listed here if numbers are consecutive? artbissellClick image for larger version. 

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  2. #17

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: artbissell)

    SEEMS 11977 IS OLDEST listed here if numbers are consecutive?
    That's a great early watch but there are a few older listed in this thread.

    The one I referred to in post #9 is serial 170 and signed John Warren. I also listed two in the 6500's serial numbers in post #10, and from others I've seen and those listed in Ron Price's book it seems that most of the 6500's range was various private labels.
    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  3. #18
    Technical Admin Tom McIntyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Fred Hansen)

    here are some pictures of the Warren that Fred refers to. Its writeup is on the site with the 2002 Seminar in Boxboro MA. The owner lent me the watch to take the pictures.

    The earliest "Private Label" from Waltham is probably the D. B. Fitts 8 day watch if you leave out the Marsh Brothers' watches as prototypes and made for themselves. I think ot the Fitts watch as an Employee Watch rather than a private label. My thoughts on Employee Watches are in this article here on the essage board http://mb.nawcc.org/content.php?35-T...ee-s-Own-Watch.

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    Tom McIntyre Click me.
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  4. #19

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Tom McIntyre)

    771572 - W.G. Jameison, Seattle W.T. (marked mvt)
    771648 - Jasper Stone, Charlestown Mass. (marked mvt)
    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  5. #20

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Fred Hansen)

    Serial 930071 export to the English market, signed "Thos. Earl, Blackburn" on the movement, SS Roman unsigned dial, silver A.L. Dennison case hallmarked to 1876 Birmingham ...

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    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  6. #21

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Fred Hansen)

    Serial 555474 marked "Chas S. Massey, 625 Hamilton St., Allentown PA", SS Roman "American Watch Co." dial ...

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    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  7. #22

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Fred Hansen)

    380870 - Wm. Edwards, New York (marked dial and mvt, mvt also signed "Adjusted")

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    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  8. #23

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: 4thdimension)

    Serial number 895938. Shipped to England and movement signed Thomas Moore, Derby who had premises at 22 Queen Street, Derby. It is cased in a rare silver case with the hallmark for Chester for the year July 1875/July 1876 with the makers initials of F.F.S for Frederick Francis Seeland the assistant manager at Waltham London. Seeland's mark was only registered for two years as he left Waltham to manage the International Watch Company in Switzerland. His mark is only found only on Waltham watches and very few have been seen. (Only six were recorded by P.T. Priestley).Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #24

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Nick23)

    809381 - Elijah Knight, Concord N.H. (marked mvt, SS Roman "American Watch Co." dial)

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    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  10. #25

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Nick23)

    695203 - American Agriculturist, Made by the American Watch Co. (marked mvt, SS Roman "American Watch Co." dial)

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    The American Agriculturist was a monthly magazine, and these private label 57 models in silver cases were one of a number of premiums that could be received for selling a given number of subscriptions.
    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  11. #26

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Fred Hansen)

    411635 - B.F. & T.M. Davies, Utica NY (marked mvt, sunk-seconds "American Watch Co." dial)

    471106 - Walter H. Ellis, Canandaigua NY (marked mvt, flat enamel "American Watch Co." dial)
    Fred Hansen
    NAWCC #109682

  12. #27
    Registered User Clint Geller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Fred Hansen)

    I find it interesting that S#'s 6,547, 6,564, 11,997, 25,318, and the pinned plate movement that Jerry mentioned (which is obviously quite early), all have marked P.L. dials, whereas all the many later P.L. movements except for one or two (e.g., 958,866) have, or are reported to have either standard dials or unsigned dials (if made for export). I wonder if this trend could reflect the growing prestige of Waltham products, and the consequent desire of retailers to have both their own name and the AWCo name somewhere on them.

    I am guessing that the company reorganization and name change in 1859 does not in and of itself explain the change, inasmuch as the 1862 AWCo factory catalog states: "We manufacture to order, Enamel Dials of all styles for all kinds of Watches - as well as for our own Watches - ..."

    It is equally interesting that among the 50 or so P.L. M57 S#s recorded on this thread, there is a huge gap in the recorded examples between S#s 25,318 and 380,064. The period of the gap coincides approximately with the company reorganization in 1859, and extends considerably beyond the end of the Civil War, to late 1868. So perhaps the new company had decided, for a time, that engraving private label movements was too disruptive to production, even if custom dials continued to be offered. (An alternative explanation might be that the newly named AWCo was singularly focused on establishing its own brand, and did not wish to dilute its market presence by selling watches under private labels.)
    Last edited by Clint Geller; 12-20-2014 at 10:47 AM.
    Clint Geller, FNAWCC, # 84,947

  13. #28

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: Clint Geller)

    An interesting and reasonable theory, but here's one marked G Grant, serial 48879 which is an Ellery from 1862.



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    Last edited by hc3; 06-18-2015 at 08:32 PM.

  14. #29

    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: hc3)


  15. #30
    Registered User Clint Geller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waltham Mod. 57 Private Labels (By: hc3)

    Quote Originally Posted by hc3 View Post
    An interesting and reasonable theory, but here's one marked G Grant, serial 48879 which is an Ellery from 1862.



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    Interesting watch, HC3. This potentially shrinks the big gap in M57 label serial numbers a bit, but it is still large. I notice, however, that S# 48,879 lacks a private label dial, like nearly all of the post-gap P.L.'s shown in this thread, but none of the pre-gap P.L.'s. Well, allow me to offer for your consideration some longshot speculation on that basis: Could this movement have not been a "private label," but a very short-lived experiment, perhaps even a one-off, with a trade name targeted at soldiers? If soldiers were the intended market, the movement chosen would indeed have to have been cheap, so a seven jewel, Ellery grade movement with an unmarked dial would have been ideal. The "G" could conceivably have stood for "General." Movement 48,879 was finished in May of 1862, which was only a few months after U. S. Grant's first significant victories at Fort Henry and Fort Donelson, and scarcely a month after his even more signal victory at Shiloh, which really catapulted him into the national limelight. So the timing of the movement's manufacture would also make sense, if indeed the name on it has something to do with the general.
    Last edited by Clint Geller; 06-19-2015 at 05:30 PM.
    Clint Geller, FNAWCC, # 84,947

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