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  1. #31

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    You 2 weight with serial number 696900 is a model 559. Nice clock! Steve

  2. #32

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    Here's another 2-weight Lenzkirch ( # 519604 )
    somewhat similar to the last one shown except for the difference in the headpiece.

    Mun C.W.

  3. #33

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    I think this is a picture of "Csers" clock and as you can see it would have had three finials on the lower part of the case.


    Richard T.
    Richard T.

  4. #34

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    Hi Mun Chor-Weng. That is also a very nice Lenzkirch. It is a model 578.

  5. #35

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    One last try to give you the model 578 and model 559

  6. #36

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    Steve and Scottie,

    Thanks for the comments. I still am not quite clear on the manufacture date of the the model 559.
    The serial number 696900 would indicate it was manufactured between 1895 and 1890. However the the trademark has the designation "1 million", so is the serial number then 1 million plus the 696900? If not, what is the significance of the "1 million" in the trademark.



  7. #37

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    It's more than unfortunate, I feel, that we keep going over some of the same information in this matter of Lenzkirch dating, serial numbers and trademarks. Does anyone actually bother to read the earlier threads?

    The newsletter of the Lenzkircher-Uhren-Freunde (the group LenzkirchFan refers to), _Der Lenzkircher Uhrenfreund_ has in fact been carrying a series of articles about serial numbers, trademarks and dating. Indeed, some are German translations made by the editors of articles which have appeared in English by my less-than-more friend Stevenson.

    In addition, they have been reporting on some on-going research to establish dating matrices which are actually based upon objective criteria, rather than estimates of estimates. These include gathering data about clocks which have inscriptions, patent numbers and the like.

    What is already established, however, is that Kochmann was not overly accurate, alas, in not a few matters. These areas have been detailed in these articles (while carefully, I would stress, trying to separate the kind author from the matter).

    Among these are that the advertisement LenzkirchFan refers to did not appear in the Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung in 1875. The DUZ wasn't even published until 1877. A subsequent search found out that it did at least appear in 1875, elsewhere.

    As another example, the advertisement does not say, as Kochmann has it, that "the undersigned manufacturer(s) found that misuse and forgery took place..." Rather, "they felt obliged" to issue the Warnung in order to prevent or preclude (vorzubeugen) this from happening. Two phrases in the original were also simply omitted in the English translation.

    Other examples that have been detailed in these articles are, for instance, that the key 1 million movement serial number is dated by K as 1900. Or that production data (e.g. Table IX in the Lenzkirch and W&H volume) is way off. Kochmann miscopied or misread or miswhatever for example the 1871 data he cited as coming from Kahlert's volume (actually GroŖuhren 1880).

    And as a final example of why such articles have been in the _Uhrenfreund_, there is quite obviously a problem with the TM and serial number pairing schemes as previously presented. And as is still being presented here, one might note <g>. Indications can be seen in Kochmann's little volume itself.

    A frequently cited example is Plate 94 where a movement with the "post-227,000" trademark has the "very low" serial number 2838. What the 2Q (which K called "production control No. lot 20) might indicate has been discussed in articles in English and in Der Lenzkircher Uhrenfreund as well as well as here.

    (Sorry, but you don't often get a chance to well as well that well).

    But one can turn over the page, and see in Plate 99 another movement with the later trademark and the serial number -- according to K an "early production serial" number -- of 47806.

    My point here however, and going back to the top, is that none of the above is new.

    It's bad enough that several should-know-better websites give the averaged dating tables (which were also, oh moan, in our Lenzkircher group's volume) as useful. Although someone just divided 1,000,000 by 43 years!

    What's worse is that we know they're way off. As anyone can see (or could see if it weren't for "but...but...they're in a book!") they're way off. For instance, by taking that 227,000 serial number we know comes from right round 1875. These really-accurate-looking tables would indicate that a movement with that number was made between 1860 and 1861. Or viewed differently, that a movement made around 1875 would have a serial number of around 558,114! And even here, the number "should be" (someone typo'd) 558,144 ie 24 x 23256.

    My own conclusion to "all of the above", with all good humor, but with no desire to hold a horo-missionary position let alone the nth time around, is that this is essentially a waste of time.

  8. #38

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    Hello Cser -- When it's been up around 115'F in Arizona as it was last week, I can imagine that St. Johns is a nice place to be. But to your Lenzie.

    The model numbers and models come from an 1883 catalogue, the original of which is, I believe, in the Franziskaner-Museum in Villingen. It appears so often in reprinted form because it was included, with a matching price list, in Professor Helmut Kahlert's volume, _GroŖuhren 1880_, published in 1985 by the Deutsches Uhrenmuseum in Furtwangen.

    It gets picked up for example in the _150 Jahre Lenzkircher Uhren_ volume published by the Lenzkircher_Uhren-Freunde group. But you can get the full catalogue reprint by borrowing _GroŖuhren 1880_ from the NAWCC Library. Or by even buying your own copy, which can be carried in your car, for emergencies!

    The 1 millionth movement (which survives) is inscribed "Februar 1894", and any movement with 1 million on it is assumed to follow that date. Your 1,696,900 among them.

    Some of the initial objective-dating information being gathered by the Lenzkirch group show a clock movement with serial number 1468569 with an inscription of 29 June 1905. So, hm, that has to have been made before then. Other production date also newly reported seem to support an average of *roughly* 50,000 serial-number-units a year round the turn of the century. So all said let's say round 1908 or so. Regards, Duck

  9. #39

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)


    Thanks for taking the time to explain the nuances of Lenzkirch serial numbers.

    Bottom line: It's a nice clock and if it is close to being a century old, a few more years one way or the other make little difference to me.


  10. #40

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    You are so right Duck. You notice that I gave csers the model number of his clock but I avoided the dating completely. It's not worth getting into right now. Maybe, one of these days, we something better to go on than dividing 1,000,000 by 43 years!


  11. #41
    Principal Administrator John Hubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    The Woodlands, TX

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    LenzkirchFan says, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Maybe, one of these days, we something better to go on than dividing 1,000,000 by 43 years! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>"Someone" needs to do the same thing I am doing for Gustav Becker clocks. Start collecting data in a spreadsheet, beginning with serial number and then adding data fields that will help identify models, descriptions, related patents, trade advertisements, technical and commercial references, etc. After you get about 2-300 clocks in the database in sequence by serial number, you will be amazed at the patterns that begin to form from which you can make informed judgements about the dating of these clocks. Takes time, patience, and a singleminded approach to record every single clock you come across.

    It works. And then yes, one of these days, there will be a serious and irrefutable Lenzkirch dating reference.

    John Hubby

  12. #42

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    That's a good point John. I guess I am on the route to doing something similar to that. I have a couple thousand pictures of Lenzkirch clocks and I try to capture the serial number on all that I can. It's amazing how things start to come together after you get enought pictures to see the trends.


  13. #43

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    Hi steve,

    It's good to know your're building a Lenzkirch database that will ultimately help collectors identify and date their Lenzkirch clocks.
    In this regards I can pass on to you any information or pictures on Lenzkirch that I come across such as this set of pictures( see below ) that I recorded off ebay not too long ago. I hope you find them useful.


    Mun C.W.

  14. #44

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    Gentlefolk -- My goodness what a good idea!

    A couple of years ago appeals were made on behalf of the Lenzkirch group for anyone with independently datable Lenzkirch clocks (those with inscriptions, or with receipts, etc.) to send the information with photos to the group. Addresses and specifics were supplied. I'm familiar with this appeal as I'd written the requests.

    These requests were published -- please note -- in the NAWCC Bulletin, in CLOCKS magazine, in Antiquarian Horology, and in the Horological Journal. They were also attached to a series of articles on Lenzkirch dating problems.

    I suspect that most of you read one or the other of these. The response was pathetic.


  15. #45
    Principal Administrator John Hubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    The Woodlands, TX

    Default Post your Lenzkirch clocks here. (By: Mike306p/Ansoniaman)

    Duck, I've found responses to such appeals to be a bit anemic at best, until you get a kind of "critical mass" of interested collectors involved enough that they start searching the Internet themselves to find information. I now have seven persone that are constantly on the lookout for something unusual regarding GB clocks, and the volume of responses continues to increase monthly.

    HOWEVER: I still takes at least ONE PERSON interested and dedicated enough to record the data, photos, etc. and keep after it with single-minded purpose. If that doesn't happen, it won't happen . . !!

    Just to provide an idea, I've copied a very small section of my spreadsheet for GB clocks and show it here. Data on this one include Serial Number, Back Plate Number (Horolovar Repair Guide), several movement characteristics, base style bezel style, specific logo on the clock, dating info, where I got the info, inscription info if present, and general comments including a detailed description of the dials and other stuff.

    NOTE that his happens to cover the period when GB introduced the pallet inspection holes in the backplates of their 400-Day clocks. Under the column "INSP. HOLE" you will see a series of "N" (None), to a series of "Y" (Yes), showing exactly where the transition took place. This same kind of info is found for numerous other GB features both on 400-Day and gravity pendulum clocks.

    It "does" involve a lot of data input . . but very much worth the effort.

    John Hubby

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