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  1. #16
    Registered user. jmclaugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: soaringjoy)

    Quote Originally Posted by soaringjoy View Post
    IMO, the way Kochmann saw it, "Remember" and (his) "Remembrance" were the same thing.
    Kochmann, of German (or was it Austrian?) origin, was not fluent in English.
    When thinking in German - and writing in English, a word like "Remembrance" almost instantly shows up in your mind.
    I guess Kochmann just got his words mixed up.

    Doug, a linguist (teaching at a German university) had indeed noticed that, but tried to avoid the point, because it would have
    become very, very exhausting.

    So, we should quickly forget about any "Junghans Remembrance weddings" associated with Resch Remember clock movements.
    What is left are the two unproven theories:

    1)
    "Remember" was added by the Resch sons in memory of Lorenz Resch's death around the late 1870s. The actual first mention is 1885, as shown in the Austrian ad by Albra.

    2)
    "Remember" was added in order to promote Resch exports easier to the UK or U.S.A.

    Research on the Resch company is extremely difficult, even over here in continental Europe, because there is not enough access to information coming out of Austria, the country then being an Imperial Austro-Hungary Monarchy.
    German clock journals such as the Deutsche Uhrmacher Zeitung (DUZ) and Allgemeines Journal der Uhrmacherkunst (AJU)
    on the other hand, have practically no mention of Resch until the Junghans takeover and old Austrian journals are extremely hard to get to. Even in these, Resch informations or ads are very scarce.
    The German and the Austrian clock factories were more or less hostile competitors - not only because of political matters.
    This led to the founding of several German branch factories in Austria (Braunau, Komotau) in order to get footholds in
    Austria and towards eastern Europe.

    The Junghans company itself never was very fond of keeping detailed records about the companies they sacked; we can see what happened after the takeover, but not very well what happened before that date.

    Hopefully, this explains a bit of the dilemna we're in and any additional information is highly welcome.
    I reckon Kochmann's English was very good. The entry for Resch in his book Trademark Index of European Origin contains references to both Remember and Remembrance which indicates he knew the difference and meaning of the two words. That book says Remembrance was adopted in 1901 as the mark for all wall clocks in remembrance of the wedding of a Junghans daughter.

    As for the theories you mention as there is no evidence to corroborate either of them they should be taken with a pinch of salt. It is a great shame Doug is no longer with us to give us his view.

    tarant, the information you posted is very interesting and I hadn't seen most it before, thanks for taking the time to do so.
    Last edited by jmclaugh; 06-26-2013 at 06:27 AM.
    Jonathan.

  2. #17
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: jmclaugh)

    The above conclusions come from conversations with Doug.

    Certainly the theories I listed are not verified; that's why I wrote "unproven".
    The first were Doug's conclusions and the second is what is "en vogue" among German
    researchers.

    Tarant, thank you well for the clippings.
    Jurgen "tempus nostrum"

  3. #18
    Registered user. jmclaugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: soaringjoy)

    I watched an episode of Poirot today entitled The Clocks and one clock had the name Rosemary on the case and was left with a baby girl when her mother gave her up for adoption. The girl now grown up is wrongly accused of murder and Poirot having of course proved her innocence and being of a kindly nature consoled the girl by telling her Rosemary in folklore means Remembrance. It made me wonder if perhaps the newly married Junghans daughter may have been called Rosemary.
    Jonathan.

  4. #19
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: jmclaugh)

    Nothing in the Junghans family tree comes close to Rosemarie or similar, but it was worth
    a shot.
    Poirot (the character, not Sir P.) was a "French" speaking Belgian Walloon, I wonder how all
    that might have translated to English and then back to German again, oh my.
    Last edited by soaringjoy; 07-03-2013 at 10:22 AM.
    Jurgen "tempus nostrum"

  5. #20
    Registered user. jmclaugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: soaringjoy)

    Doh, that's the trouble with theories.

    Romarin, Rosemary and Rosmarin I think.
    Jonathan.

  6. #21

    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: Albra)

    Greetings Piotr,

    here are some thoughts on the development of factory Gebr Resch.

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    And in particular, I would like to post an advertisement from Gebr Resch in 1885. It contains various features that we should look at closer:

    1) This advertisment of 1885 already shows a logo.
    2) This logo is called the English brand name "Remember"
    3) This logo has additional letters as shortcut: O.V.R.M.Co.
    4) the company Ed Pfeil in Wieden was sole selling the clocks and movements.

    To 1) Austrian (clocks) factories rarely used logos and if so, usually only later. That Resch used a logo already in 1885 (probably earlier), is unusual in Austria.

    To 2) Logos are used particularly frequently in America but are in Europe an American fad, as it were. In Europe one finds usually just the name of the maker. In Germany logos do not come into use until around 1885-90. That at Gebr Resch available with this logo American influences, is confirmed by the word mark "Remember" again.

    To 3) The letters in the logo OVRMCo can be translated as "original Vienna Regulator Manufacturing Company," which closely approximates the German "First Viennese clocks factory Gebr. Resch."

    To 4) The fact that the exclusive distribution of clocks and movements has been assigned to another operation in 1885, shows that the Gebr Resch had no roots in the trade and were therefore dependent on the other company for distribution.

    If we consider these observations, and especially the compounds of the logo in the Engl., we can see that the clock factory Gebr Resch must have exported their clocks to England or America very early, otherwise they would not have had an American character and American word mark. Who took over the export of these clocks and why the word mark "Remember" was chosen is unclear and probably cannot be clarified today. And possibly the export of the clocks was only temporary, early, but only temporary.

    I have found two more points from the history:

    The clock factory Gebr Resch employed 200 workers in 1885 already. There were produced 12-15,000 movements / clocks a year.

    And now I -we- wonder what new knowledge will this thread bring about the Gebr Resch clocks and clocks factory in Ebensee.



    albra
    Last edited by Steven Thornberry; 07-10-2013 at 02:52 PM. Reason: by request

  7. #22
    Registered User tarant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: Albra)

    The "American path" is F. Kroeber from N.Y. He imported GR movements (ebauches from the ad) without "Remember" logo, but with classical SN (on the first post). Like GB anniversary clocks produced for BHA more than 30 years later.

    123979 :
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?7...oeber-movement

    104066:
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?3...Resch-movement
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And probably the oldest known GR imported to USA (And still in USA AFAIK...). SN stamped by Resch is 14095. Kroeber's (?) SN 289?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by tarant; 07-08-2013 at 01:51 PM.
    Regards
    Piotr

  8. #23

    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: tarant)

    Quote Originally Posted by tarant View Post
    The "American path" is F. Kroeber from N.Y. He imported GR movements (ebauches from the ad) without "Remember" logo, but with classical SN (on the first post).
    Piotr, yes Florence Krber most likely was the American importer. And Krber may have provided the impetus for the "Remember" logo. (As far as I know, Krber was a German immigrant, not Austrian, was he?)

    That does not explain absolutely why the company Gebr Resch already has used a logo in Austria in the mid-1880s in American form , and thus at a time when logos in Austria were not yet common. But most likely can be explained as our observation.

    albra

  9. #24
    Registered User tarant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: Albra)

    The answer on question "How, where and when the logo Remember was born " may be here.
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?9...Wall+Regulator

    Another Kroeber regulator. Unfortunately, there's no view of the whole back plate. The serial number is 60620 only or + 100000 (I don't think +200000). No " Remember " logo on the movement's back plate, only F.Kroeber N.Y. But on the back of the case - blurred stamp with O.V.R.M.Co and GR initials. Is Remember in the upper part ? I think so. Did Kroeber invented this ?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Steven Thornberry; 07-08-2013 at 05:21 PM.
    Regards
    Piotr

  10. #25
    Registered user. jmclaugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: tarant)

    I can't read what is on the back of the case well enough to say what it says. However afaik Resch did not stamp movements with the serial number on the front plate.
    Jonathan.

  11. #26

    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: tarant)

    Hm I would say the movement with the Krber-stamp is later, when the name of the importer had to be stamped in. May be in the 1890ies.

    The first time we know the "REmember"-logo is this ad in 1885, but may be it was registered already before. And I would say Krber gave the impetus for this logo, but it was registered in Austria by Gebr. Resch, not by Krber in N.Y.

    And cooperation, and also the influence of Kroeber on the company Gebr Resch we can view as certain. But a date for Remember the sign we unfortunately do not know. But in any case before 1885 and thus for Austrian standards very early.

    These are wonderful insights, Piotr! Congratulations!

    albra

  12. #27
    Registered User tarant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: jmclaugh)

    All movements I've seen had SN (without 100000, 200000) on the front plate.

    Stamp on the back of the case is like the signature on GR Freischwingers (this has SN 47430).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards
    Piotr

  13. #28
    Registered user. jmclaugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: tarant)

    Quote Originally Posted by tarant View Post
    All movements I've seen had SN (without 100000, 200000) on the front plate.
    I own one that doesn't.
    Jonathan.

  14. #29

    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: tarant)

    Quote Originally Posted by tarant View Post
    The answer on question "How, where and when the logo Remember was born " may be here.
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?9...Wall+Regulator

    Another Kroeber regulator. Unfortunately, there's no view of the whole back plate. The serial number is 60620 only or + 100000 (I don't think +200000). No " Remember " logo on the movement's back plate, only F.Kroeber N.Y. But on the back of the case - blurred stamp with O.V.R.M.Co and GR initials. Is Remember in the upper part ? I think so. Did Kroeber invented this ?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Piotr, I would like to draw your attention to the following points: in 1885 had Ed. Pfeil in Wieden the exclusive distribution rights of clocks and movements of Gebr. Resch. It was later reported in the watchmaker journal that Solomon Abeles in Wien took over the sole distribution from 01.01.1886 . As usual in Austria this included the right to buy clock cases, to provide them with movements, and to sell as complete clocks.

    This could mean that clock cases with Gebr Resch logo were just purchased. But to identify that the case were were determined for movements of Gebr Resch , they were stamped with the Resch logo.

    albra

  15. #30

    Default Re: Post Your Gebrder Resch clocks here. (By: Albra)

    I am aware that my posts contain many mistakes. (I beg your pardon: Mr. Google translater still speaks very little English, and he is still not an expert in clocks ... Ahem.) I would prefer, if Jrgen Soaringjoy or Steven Thornberry would correct the worst mistakes. (Thank you!)

    Piotr, I also like to comment on the documents that you have shown:

    They are great sources! But I am surprised at one thing:

    According these sources Gebr Resch offered in the 1860's tower clocks for stations, churches, factories etc.

    This is a very wide range of clocks, and one needs different types of clocks for churches or stations. Second, to make tower clocks one needs special equipment, other than is needed for vienna regulators, such as a steel-foundry (not brass!!), etc..

    But later Gebr. Resch didnt offer tower clocks. What does this mean?


    So, as this ad is written, it could also be that Gebr Resch took these clocks for the region of Vienna to an external manufacturer, so to speak, as an area representative. We do not know exactly, but I think it is conceivable that this advertising also could be understood that way.

    But in any case: you have collected very good and interesting information. Congrats and thanks for sharing!

    albra
    Last edited by Steven Thornberry; 07-10-2013 at 02:35 PM. Reason: per request

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