Elgin, H. Muhr Sons, Philadelphia, Pocket Watch

[Monta Anthony]

How can I find out more info on this watch?

[Monta Anthony]

How can I find out more info on this watch?

[Fred Hansen]

If you post the serial number on the mechanism of your watch we can likely tell you more about the grade, model, date, and other details.

For more info on the Muhr Sons marking there is some excellent research on Elgin Watch Co. private-labels being done by NAWCC member John Fogarty. The link to his assembled data seems to be down right now (at least on my computer) but when it is back up you can compare your watch to other private-label watches he has observed. Here is a link to John's data ...

http://www.nawcc-info.org/Fogarty/fogarty.htm

It looks as if a Google search will also turn up some history on this firm ...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22muhr%27s+sons%22+philadelphia

Fred

[Kent]

Hi Monta Anthony:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

Although Fred may well be correct in that your watch is a private label watch, it sounds more like your watch movement is made by, and marked for, the Elgin National Watch Co., while the case was made by H. Muhr Sons.

The Elgin National Watch Co. was the biggest American watch company in terms of jeweled movements produced, over 50,000,000 in its approximately 100 years of building watches from 1866 to the 1960s. Wayne Schlitt has a great web site devoted to Elgin watches at elginwatches.org. Also, an early article on the company, The National Watch Company by S. W. Robinson, J. of the Franklin Institute, 1869 (http://photos14.flickr.com/16926791_a7d5497b8b_o.jpg), originally from Greg Frauenhoff's website can be viewed. Another, illustrated, 1869 article from Harper's New Monthly Magazine, "Making Watches by Machinery" may be purchased from an ebay Dealer (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8948689742&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BIN_IT).

Basic information about an Elgin watch, including its approximate date of manufacture, can be obtained by using the serial number on the movement (the "works"), not the case, to look the watch up on Wayne Schlitt's Elgin watch web site at elginwatches.org. Choose "Elgin Databases" on the left-hand side of the page and then "Serial Number Lookup." Be sure to type in the serial number without any spaces or commas. If you enter a space and then "v=13" after the serial number, notes on surviving examples will be included in the ensuing report. These were as reported to Wayne, or as he found them on them internet. After you look up your watch, choose "Watch Codes" from the menu in the left-hand side of the page, that's where the abbreviations are explained. There is a lot of other good information on the site on Elgin watches and on pocket watches in general. Its well worth a couple of hours to go through different sections.

Oldwatch.com's Elgin Production Date Table (http://www.oldwatch.com/elgindate.html), or the PocketWatchSite's Elgin Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/elginserials.html) also provide a means for determining the approximate production date. In general, we think of serial number lists (not just for Elgin, but for other watch manufacturers as well) to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

Note: The grade of a case is the quality of the materials and work that went into it. Each case grade was offered in many different engraved designs.

A short history of American watch cases, within the online article "Decorative Aspects of American Horology," by Philip Poniz, can be viewed on The Antiquorum Magazine (http://www.antiquorum.com/vox/june_2002/poniz/poniz.htm) website.

The following information is based upon material in the book, “History of the American Watch Case,” Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971 (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)).
Muhr & Sons was a firm making watch cases in Philadelphia in the 1880s (and possibly earlier). By the end of that decade, it had evolved into H. Muhr's Sons (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/4/6/5/465003775/465003775_1889_May_H_Muhrs_Sons_LR.jpg?ts=455667B0&key=BF41ADD9893BF44438853E3B9EAB5DB6&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fnawcc-mb.infopop.cc%2F6%2Fubb.x%2F%2Cs%2C2386079361%2Ca% 2Cga%2Cul%2C465003775%2Cic%2CY%2F1889_May_H_Muhrs_ Sons_LR.jpg), manufactourers of Willemim Case Co. solid gold cases; Crown, Excelsoir and Lion gold-filed cases; and the Crown Climax Watch Case. By 1891, the firm was also making the Victory Rolled-Gold-Plate Case (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/6/8/4/684002975/684002975_1891_April_22_H_Muhrs_Sons_LR.jpg?ts=455 667F4&key=9F0805C87FF4F29EC755F52DD2CB532B&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fnawcc-mb.infopop.cc%2F6%2Fubb.x%2F%2Cs%2C2386079361%2Ca% 2Cga%2Cul%2C684002975%2Cic%2CY%2F1891_April_22_H_M uhrs_Sons_LR.jpg). The company was reorganized again by 1895, becoming J. Muhr & Brother Three years later, in 1898, the company was sold to T. Zurbrugg & Co. to become part of the Philadelphia Watch Case Co. and later, the Keystone Watch Case Co.