Philadelphia Watch Company. Eugene Pauls

[JT Lace]

I have a Minty Philadelphia Watch Company. Serial No. 2013.The mainspring barrel area is marked ''Paulus Patents, 1868, Aug.25, Nov. 3rd'.The watch is 14K and is beautifully engraved with a rich swirling leaf and flower patern, which extends seamlessly all over the case. the movement is signed by the company with serial number 2013.It has fish scale damascening and is superbly engineered.It features large screwed gold jewel settings. The large balance cock cap jewel mount is gold and triple screwed. There is a large gold double cap jewel mount on the pallet lever & escapement wheel jewels. The timing screws are also gold. The movement is 19 jeweld.
MY QUESTION. I have been told that these movements were imported from Switzerland and may have been made by IWC, I have a couple of IWC of the same period and find it strange that IWC would go to all the trouble to make these movement and in no way do they they compare, I have also spoken on the IWC forum and received five replies all in suport of PWC not being made at IWC. Looking into it further I found an article on the IWC forum showing a Patek Philippe movent and only for the name on the movement they are 99% the same. I beleive the same importer used to bring in IWC and PP movements at the time of PWC 1868-1886.
Comment, I have a copy of an old poster showing PWC showing watches at the Centennial International Exhibition.
REMARKS; I have pictures of at Least 3 PWC movements including my own, and one of a PP movement, if any would like a copy please contact mt.

<trevor.lace@cytanet.com.cy>

Trevor Lace

[JT Lace]

I have a Minty Philadelphia Watch Company. Serial No. 2013.The mainspring barrel area is marked ''Paulus Patents, 1868, Aug.25, Nov. 3rd'.The watch is 14K and is beautifully engraved with a rich swirling leaf and flower patern, which extends seamlessly all over the case. the movement is signed by the company with serial number 2013.It has fish scale damascening and is superbly engineered.It features large screwed gold jewel settings. The large balance cock cap jewel mount is gold and triple screwed. There is a large gold double cap jewel mount on the pallet lever & escapement wheel jewels. The timing screws are also gold. The movement is 19 jeweld.
MY QUESTION. I have been told that these movements were imported from Switzerland and may have been made by IWC, I have a couple of IWC of the same period and find it strange that IWC would go to all the trouble to make these movement and in no way do they they compare, I have also spoken on the IWC forum and received five replies all in suport of PWC not being made at IWC. Looking into it further I found an article on the IWC forum showing a Patek Philippe movent and only for the name on the movement they are 99% the same. I beleive the same importer used to bring in IWC and PP movements at the time of PWC 1868-1886.
Comment, I have a copy of an old poster showing PWC showing watches at the Centennial International Exhibition.
REMARKS; I have pictures of at Least 3 PWC movements including my own, and one of a PP movement, if any would like a copy please contact mt.

<trevor.lace@cytanet.com.cy>

Trevor Lace

[doug sinclair]

Trevor,

Welcome!

With your references to IWC and Patek, I am reluctant to tell you what Ehrhardt & Meggers say about Philadelphia Watch Co. watches in their book American Watches ID & Price Guide, but here goes:

Made in 6, 16, 18, & 20 sizes in both gilt and nickel movements, key wind and stem wind, Swiss made. Unique Swiss case sizes, watches of very little value unless in original case. Stem wind, stem set or lever set. Movements usually come with high quality DS or SS glass enamel dials, and sometimes in beautiful karat gold cases. Sometimes marked Philadelphia-E. Paulus. Unfortunately, we are unable to discuss values here, but copies of the aforementioned book might still be available from horological book sellers. Values stated are out of date, but certainly nowhere near Patek or IWC.

[Jeff Hess]

Doug, Trevor,

I am on e who thinks that my old frineds Mr. Meggers and Mr. Ehrhardt were wrong!

These are very nice watches and not that often seen. (Far from rare, but certianly scarce) and they look great and are of a medium to high grade! And they have that American flavor to them.
American? not really. But as American I guess as Gruen and Bulova and such were to wrist watches.

I think they are a great watch to collect and very very underappreciated.

Jeff Hess

[JT Lace]

Thanks for that Doug,
I will try and get the book.
I have a couple of thoughts.
1. How can you tell if case is original .
2. If imported swiss, which company in 1868.
3. I have a couple of IWC. one Cal 53 and one Cal64.
4. You reley should see my pictures of a Patek movement of about 1868 alonside the PWC movement.
The message board will not take pictures at the moment I can only send by e Mail.
Thank you for everything.
Trevor

[JT Lace]

Hi Jeff & Doug.

Ref 'Shugart,Engle and Gilbert'
Cooksey Shugart of the above volume put the movements down to IWC I beleives he well known in the USA Horological world ?.
I have a comment from Fredrich Wagner a very well known Europen Horologist very involved with IWC history and he states, I quote' I personally believe that the 'Shugart,Engle and Gilbert, simply mixed up the names Patek and IWC. accopanying his comments is an old PWC movement and an Old PP movement.
All these experts I wounder who is correct.

Trevor

[Kent]

Trevor:

Currently, Tom Chaudoir, the NAWCC Message Board Administrator, is recommending that those who do not have web space in which to post pictures register for a free account at flickr.com (http://flickr.com/register.gne). Their menu-driven procedure for loading pictures is about as easy as it gets. Once you enlarge the picture, using flickr's magnifying glass icon, scroll down below the picture to find the field labeled "1. Grab the photo's URL:" The link in that field is the one to post on the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board.

If you have a problem posting the picture(s), you can attach it (them) to an e-mail to me (you can get my email address by clicking on my name in the upper left-hand corner of this post and viewing my Public Profile) and I'll post it (them) for you.

Good luck,

[JT Lace]

Hi folks,

Just received E mail from Switzerlandpart of it mentions.
A Techinical History of the American Watch Industry 1850 - 1930 by Michael C. Harrold.
and
Harold refers to the NAWCC Bulletin December 1978 article by Larry Treiman. The Philadelphia Watch Co. Revisited.
Any chance this article is still available.
Trevor

[Kent]

Trevor:

Back issues of the Bulletin are available to members on loan by mail from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm).

[Kent]

Here are Trevor's Watch Pictures (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/Philadelphia_Watch_Co.jpg)

[JT Lace]

One last item then of to bed it is 0030 here in Cyprus and very hot.
Of interest.
Some of you may know that, prior to the late 1970's, IWC had entrusted the Henri Stern Watch Agency at Rockefeller Center in New York with the distribution of their timepieces in the US for many many years. Henri Stern was also the owner and distributor of Patek Philippe since 1934 by which time it aquired control of PP.
There were watch owners and enthusiasts back then who simply unaware that the two watch companies. IWC and PP, were not only differently owned but competitors. Nevertheless, the confusion in some circles persisted until IWC broke away from Henri Stern and went with two other indeoendent US distributors before launching out in the US in 1989 with their wholly owned subsidery.Now taking these facts a bit further, one can see why the Shugart book may have mistakenly identied the watch in question with IWC.
Quote (Jack Freedman)

[Greg Frauenhoff]

FWIW, here are some comparitive prices (I believe that they're "Keystone" prices, as in 2x wholesale) from 1876 for Phil. and a few other mvts:

Phil 3/4 plate stem wind "No. 1", nickel, full jeweled "including centre hole": $80

Elgin full plate stem wind B. W. Raymond: $80

New York John L. King stem wind 3/4 plate, 17 jewels: $105

Waltham 3/4 plate American Watch Co.: $300

Illinois full plate Stuart (key wind?): $60

Howard stem wind 3/4 plate nickel adj hc&p: $175

The best Phil. grade was at the lower end of the price scale for the best 3/4 plate mvts, but above the high end for full plate styles

[mch]

I agree with Jeff, that Philadelphia is an interesting and under-appreciated watch. There are certainly some beautiful examples. It has American flavor because the layout is roughly a mirror-imaged Howard keywind.

Regarding the Patek, did anybody look at Trevor's pictures? The Patek is not just kinda-like a Philadelphia, it is a Philadelphia. As I recall, Paulus's patent is a design patent on the click mechanism, and these watches are identical.

The plot thickens, as I recal years ago seeing a Philadelphia dial marked PP on the back. Does anyone know of other such Patek's as Trevor shows? Do we believe that they are Patek's?

[JT Lace]

MAlexandre Bonsack/Eugene Paulus/ PWC


The following is from "Swiss Timepiece Makers 1775-1975" by Kathleen Pritchard:
'Trade marks: "A.B." on a watch (1887); A.BK [the K is in superscript](1895).

The company registered its name in 1887 for making watch cases and movements. The company registered the "A.BK" mark in 1895 for making cases, curvettes, movements, and packagings. It registered its name that year for making watch cases
and movements.'

Pritchard also cites Larry Treiman and the 1874 shipment so this may not be additional information for you. Alexandre Bonsack may not have been the only source of movements for the Philadelphia Watch Co.


I'm aware of three US patents by Eugene Paulus:

21146 for an "Escapement" (in 1858)
70465 for a "Watch key" (in 1867)
83788 for "Watch winding click" (in 1868)

The latter patent is the one shown in the images by Fritz (earlyiwc) in your earlier thread. Other patents may exist in addition to the above.

If you would like to look at the patents go to the US Patent Office site on the link below and search by number. Patents before 1975 can only be searched using limited criteria. Searching for things like names and companies will yield nothing.

Cheers from the cellar.


1. The invoice that Treiman found was dated 28th March 1874.
2. The above would indicate that the company that shiped some of the PWC movements was registerd in 1887, It would seem the company was trading 13 years before it registerd.
3. My contacts through this board and any other information on PWC indicates that it started in 1868. Why was Eugene Paulus registring a patent for his watches in 1858. 10 years before. Perhaps he worked for another company.
My PWC definatley has the 1868 patent applied to it. Perhapd PP used his patent ?.
Trevor

[JT Lace]

Niebling/Treimon
I have just read Warren H. Niebling.(PA) April 1978 Bulletin 'Philadelphia Watch Company'
And The Philadelphia Watch Co. - Revisitrd by Larry Treiman (CA).
Larry Trieman invoice 1874.For the PWC supplier(Alexandre Bosack)
Alexandre Bosack registerd 1887 Switzerland.
Philadelphia Watch Company 1868 - 1886.
Eugene Paulus Patents Registerd USA.
21146 Escapment (in 1858) 70465 Watch Key (in 1867) and 83788 Watch winding click (in 1868)
Questionn 1. Were did Eugene Paulus get his movements from prior to 1874.
Question 2. Why was Eugene registring a Patent for a watch 'Escapement' in 1858 when his watch company did not appear until 1868 a good 10 years later was he working elseware?.
The PWC was listed in 1882 in the Philadelphia directories.
The PWC also got a 'Highest Diploma and Medal' at the Centennial International Exhibition.I would have thought Awards would hardly have been given at the Centenial for bogus watch movements when the watch company was in the same city as the Centennial( tonge in cheek, we all know the date of of this Exhibition) (Niebling).From some of the replies on the Board it would seem that PWC are not held in very high regard.

Some collecters must like them.(me included)
I would suggest if you have any mint ones one, put them out to auction on the Europen market.
Some of you will have seen that one was just aquired 21 bids and was sold for over 900 US dollars.They say it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Thats all from me.
Keep collecting.

Trevor

[Jon Hanson]

How was it cased (what material) and what size and style for $900?

[Dr. Jon]

I would be very surprised if the Philadelphia Watch movements came from Patek Phillipe.

PP was founded to exploit Adrian Phillipe's patents on stem winding and stem setting.

I have also seen some odd stuff they made on special order but something like the picture posted being a Patek Phillipe is hard to believe.

For one thing it is lever set and Phillip's patent was for stem setting. I have never seen a PP with three screws hoding the balance cap jewel but this is a feature of the IWC Jones Caliber.

Also, Shugart and Engle really know their Patek's. For them to confuse a Patek for and IWC is hard to accept.


Old International Watch Company movements are very nice and it is still a prestige company. They also would ahve been more likely to make movement in American Style, since the founder was an American.

[JT Lace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dr. Jon:
I would be very surprised if the Philadelphia Watch movements came from Patek Phillipe.

PP was founded to exploit Adrian Phillipe's patents on stem winding and stem setting.

I have also seen some odd stuff they made on special order but something like the picture posted being a Patek Phillipe is hard to believe.

For one thing it is lever set and Phillip's patent was for stem setting. I have never seen a PP with three screws hoding the balance cap jewel but this is a feature of the IWC Jones Caliber.

Also, Shugart and Engle really know their Patek's. For them to confuse a Patek for and IWC is hard to accept.


Old International Watch Company movements are very nice and it is still a prestige company. They also would ahve been more likely to make movement in American Style, since the founder was an American. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry Dr John but Eugene Paulus was French born in Paris,he came to America about 1852, he died in Geneva, May 1892.

[JT Lace]

Originally posted by Jon Hanson:biggrin:ear Jon, with cap in hand it was I who bid 909 US dollars for the PWC you see it as my first entry on the board. I had another one which I passed on but it was no way as beautiful as this watch I also have a couple of IWC one a Cal 64 in mint condition. Also a couple of Gowlands and a pair case Smith of London 1786, this is part of my collection. It was interesting how the PWC bidding went 21 Bids before I got the watch from a very well known UK dealer. I am very happy with the PWC it sits well with my other watches. I read quiet a lot an the PWC and Eugene Paulus
I was just a bit miffed at the way some US cllectors regard them as not quiet correct. There was quiet a lot of work done on the PWC and Eugene in the 1970s a great deal went on the bulliten board.
I do not have a great collection I only maintain 20 pocket watches, when I see something I am interested in I sell off one or two to make a purchase. I would not part with my IWCs nor my PWC unless I see a better one with more of its own history. I have been collecting for just over 40 years.I am now 70.
P.S. I wear DJ or morning dress quiet regularly and the PWC will alwys be a talking point on its double rose gold albert with 270 hall marks each link is marked, not the sort of work we see now days.
All the best.

Trevor Lace

How was it cased (what material) and what size and style for $900? 14K

[Jon Hanson]

Hi Trevor,

Gold cased ones sell for more dep on condition and the number of jewels (grade). Movements are 25 dollars and up and exist over here by the hundreds. One former nawcc president had nearly 100 movements.

The honest problem is that these are Swiss watches and collectors over here desire American Watches, then English watches. There are many times fewer Swiss collectors here--the most of which are interested in Swiss RR watches. Loose Swiss bar movements, in HUGE supply, are boring and not really collected; however, named hi grades are always sought by sophistocated collectors and are worthwhile collectibles which just might be fairly well ignored due to the bar movement syndrome and over supply of unnamed Swiss watches/movements.

Jon

Jon

[JT Lace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon Hanson:
Hi Trevor,

Gold cased ones sell for more dep on condition and the number of jewels (grade). Movements are 25 dollars and up and exist over here by the hundreds. One former nawcc president had nearly 100 movements.

The honest problem is that these are Swiss watches and collectors over here desire American Watches, then English watches. There are many times fewer Swiss collectors here--the most of which are interested in Swiss RR watches. Loose Swiss bar movements, in HUGE supply, are boring and not really collected; however, named hi grades are always sought by sophistocated collectors and are worthwhile collectibles which just might be fairly well ignored due to the bar movement syndrome and over supply of unnamed Swiss watches/movements.

Jon

Jon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the prompt reply.You state these are Swiss movements Jon,Do you know which Swiss company supplyed the movements prior to 1874.The Swiss at this time were very keen on keeping records especialy on movements and parts exported. You may have read 'Swiss Timepiece Makers 1775 - 1975 ' by Kathleen Pritchard. I asked a collector in Europe to try and find any reference to PWC and Eugene Paulus, he did find the Larry Treiman entery about the Bonsack shipment of 1874.But it would seem that Bonsack was not around prior to 1887 Aprox.
Also to me it seems strange that Paulus was registering Patents with the US patent office in 1858 what was he up to as by most people the PWC was not around for about another 10 years.
As I mentioned before It would seem that Paulus Highest Diploma and Medal from the Centennial International Exhibition must of been for a watch with a Swiss movement ?.

I find the following statemt interesting..our improved style watch movements.......being made by a new process of intelligent labour and AMERICAN machinery ....714 Chestnut St, Philadelphia, Pa, E. Paulus, Pres.
This was Mr. Paulus, reply in the February, 1870, issue of Watchmaker & Jeweler, to an article in the January, 1870, issue of the same magazine, really a reprint from a New York newspaper, labelling the movements made by the PWC as ' Swiss Imports. After Mr. Paulus' heated reply, let it be noted that the accusation was not repeated.
The Author also states that, ' Let it be known that after many years of of searching trade magazines of those times, no other such charges were found.
Why in 1870 did Paulus repute that his watches were Swiss movements, surley the February issue of 'Watchmaker & Jeweler' would have been able to prove otherwise.
I quiet happily except that in 1874 Paulus was importing 'ROUGH E'BAUCHE' from Switzerland as is shown by the Treiman paper. But what about prior to this date, do you have any information.
Please excuse what may seem a setteld matter on PWC I just like to tidy things up.
It is rather like the statement 'Columbus discoverd Americia' me with a name 'Lace' and being of Viking descent might dispute that as well.
By the way I do have a slight conection with the USA, if as is now generally accepted 'Capt Myles Standish' of the 'Mayflower' was from the Isle of Man, his Mother was Christian Lace wife of John Standish of 'Ellanbane' Lezayer, in the Isle of Man, his mother came from a place called Brid/Andreas in the IOM. My family tree is from Bride/Andreas IOM.You might recall the Standish on his death bed left his estates in the IOM to his eldest son.
Sorry I went on a bit from IWC to American history.

Trevor Lace
All good stuff.

[Tom McIntyre]

Trevor,

I find Larry's analysis of the Paulus statement pretty convincing. At the time the Swiss were rapidly retooling with American machinery and only later began using their locally produced machines. This started with Tremont several years earlier. There is a lot of documentation that the tool makers in Waltham were supplying machines to Switzerland and later to the UK.

If he wanted to say the watches were made in America, he would have done so. Like all marketing, you have to read what is unsaid.

Paulus was clearly an American and the intellectual property in the Philadelphia Watch is primarily his. However, the same is true of Tremont and much later of Gruen and Bulova.

Interesting background Trevor, are you Sir George Daniels' landlord? :wink:

[JT Lace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dr. Jon:
I would be very surprised if the Philadelphia Watch movements came from Patek Phillipe.

PP was founded to exploit Adrian Phillipe's patents on stem winding and stem setting.

I have also seen some odd stuff they made on special order but something like the picture posted being a Patek Phillipe is hard to believe.

For one thing it is lever set and Phillip's patent was for stem setting. I have never seen a PP with three screws hoding the balance cap jewel but this is a feature of the IWC Jones Caliber.

Also, Shugart and Engle really know their Patek's. For them to confuse a Patek for and IWC is hard to accept.


Old International Watch Company movements are very nice and it is still a prestige company. They also would ahve been more likely to make movement in American Style, since the founder was an American. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Dr Jon your statement 'That something like the picture posted by me being a Patek Philipe is hard to believe'I quote the complete after sales brouchure on this movement. ' extremely rare watch movement with unique Patek calibre Patek Dial and hands. Movement 2/3 plate movement, frosted. gilt chatoned. Gold screw com. balance' Auctioned by Dr H. Muser on May 17th 2003. lot 166. Call price 1800 Euro.
I am now more confused, Europe says Patek America finds it hard to beleave.

All the best.
Trevor

[JT Lace]

I forgot to mention Eugene Paulus patent No 83788 dated 1868 for a 'Watch winding click, as he called it, then look at the so called PP (my words) I think someone should look at the PP patent.
I have all Eugene Paulus Patents and the drawings.

Trevor

[JT Lace]

Originally posted by Tom McIntyre:
Trevor,

I find Larry's analysis of the Paulus statement pretty convincing. At the time the Swiss were rapidly retooling with American machinery and only later began using their locally produced machines. This started with Tremont several years earlier. There is a lot of documentation that the tool makers in Waltham were supplying machines to Switzerland and later to the UK.

If he wanted to say the watches were made in America, he would have done so. Like all marketing, you have to read what is unsaid.

Paulus was clearly an American and the intellectual property in the Philadelphia Watch is primarily his. However, the same is true of Tremont and much later of Gruen and Bulova.

Interesting background Trevor, are you Sir George Daniels' landlord? :wink: Sir George NO.
1. Eugene Palus was not an American, he was born in Paris France,arrived America about 1852 and died in Geneva 1892.
2. I agree that Paulus PWC received Rough E'BAUCHE from Switzerland but I beleive them to have been BLANKS as if you look at his patents registerd in the USA patent office, one for a Escapment 1858. one for Watch key 1867 and one for a Watch winding click 1868. If you look at the patent drawings for the Escapment and the winding system, he shows how he will fit them into the E'BAUCHE surely these could not have been pre prepard in Switzerland.
Question; how much of a movement needs to be made in the USA to be called 'American watch'. you must admit with the Escapment, Winding system,Double sunk face and a case being madein Philadelphia.If you are going to class PWC a Swiss movement with this much being home grown what about, Aaron L. Dennison, Fayette, Stratten, Giles and Albert H. Potter.
Just my thoughts.
This is what the hobby is all about.
Trevor

[JT Lace]

I quote: If he wanted to say the watches were made in America, he would have done so

Eugene Paulus did state that his watches were ;MADE IN AMERICA'
.....our improved style of watch movements being MADE by a new process of intelligent labour and AMERICAN machinery ..... 714 Chestnut St, Philadelphia, Pa, E, Paulus, Pres.

This was Mr Paulus' reply in the February 1870, issue of Watchmaker & Jewler, to an article in the January 1870, issue of the same magazine, realy a reprint from a New York newspaper, labeling the movements made by the Philadelphia Watch Co, as 'Swiss Imports' After Mr Paulus' heated reply, no more accusations were made as to them not being Ameican.
And as he got a Medal and Diploma for his watches at the Centennial International Exhibition, he must of had one hell of a nerve to present them.
By by

Trevor

[Dr. Jon]

1) Your quotation of Paulus's reply about the American origin of this watches was carefully stated by Paulus. You quoted him as writing they were made on American machinery. This was certainly true of IWC and some others, but the machinery was in Switzerland.


2) The Patek Phillipe patents are described in the Huber and Banbury book and I have checked them on the odd occasions when I get to closely examine a old transitional Patek Phillipe watch under its dial.

3) As I wrote initially, Patek did a lot of odd one-offs so its is possible that they finished the watch. Dr. Muser is a respected source here, but usually they, and other top houses usually back their attribtion with a certificate from Patek, often referred to as an "extract from the archives". Such a certificate would remove doubt for most of us. The movement in question with a PP signature under that dial may be

a) A genuine Patek although almost certainly bought in from IWC and finished by Patek,--- they did stuff like this
b) A forged mark


With such a certificate I think it would have brought a lot more than it did. Patek Collectors spend a lot for rare items they are certain came from Patek.

Of these possibilities, the most likely to me is a movement bought in from IWC and finished by Patek. By your quoted description from Muser, it is a rare Patek. Even if a rare Patek, and Dr. Muser is credible, it does not establish Patek as the likely maker of most Paulus watches.


I concede that the example may have been finished by Patek. Its not proven, but it is more credible than I had thought.

Patek, for various reasons, bought in movements by other makers and finished them. A certificate by Patek would resolve this.

If this be the case, a single, stated rare example falls far short of proving that Patek rather than IWC was the source of most, typical, Philadelphia movements. The much more likely situation is that this movement, like most Philadelphia ones, started in the IWC machine shop.

[mch]

My speculation over 20 years ago, and it was merely speculation, on page 33 of American
Watchmaking that IWC made the Philadelphia's, was based mainly on Paulus's claim of American machinery. It is not clear where American machinery in Switzerland came from in 1870, for the watch tool companies were not yet operating. But, there could not have been too much such machinery over there at that time.
Philadelphia's also had a mild similarity to characteristics of early IWC's. There could have been a sort of American-to-American connection between Jones and Paulus, plus Jones' hunger for new business to feed his new company.
In any event, it was all circumstantial, with no hard facts to connect it. Has anything more solid since surfaced?

[JT Lace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mch:
My speculation over 20 years ago, and it was merely speculation, on page 33 of American
Watchmaking that IWC made the Philadelphia's, was based mainly on Paulus's claim of American machinery. It is not clear where American machinery in Switzerland came from in 1870, for the watch tool companies were not yet operating. But, there could not have been too much such machinery over there at that time.
Philadelphia's also had a mild similarity to characteristics of early IWC's. There could have been a sort of American-to-American connection between Jones and Paulus, plus Jones' hunger for new business to feed his new company.
In any event, it was all circumstantial, with no hard facts to connect it. Has anything more solid since surfaced? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you for the Question as to some form of evidence that IWC movements were used by PWC.If you look at pictures of the 'Jones calibre' of 1868 and then look at a PWC movement of about the same time it would have been near impossible for Paulus to incorperate his patents into the Jones movements, are we suggesting that the newly formed IWC company of Jones/Moser from the very start 1868 were makeing different movements for different customers. point of interest Paulus also started in 1868.
We know Paulus was purching E'BAUCHE' from Alexandra Bonsack in 1874 but by Larry Treiman's Invoices 88 were stem wind,and 86 were rough E'BAUCHE, these would have been OK for Paulus to put his Patents in.but this only accounts for 174 movements of the aprox; 12,000 the PWC is reputed to have made.
Just to set things straight. I am actually a keen IWC fan and all that stands for I have IWC pocket watches and many books on the company.
One of the reasons I like IWC is because of their history this is one of the only watch companys still producing beautiful pocket watches, the records they hold and there helpfull way they deal with paople, even small time collectors like me make them a pleasure to talk to.I quote; since 1882 we have engraved individual serial numbers on every movement from Schaffhausen. As an example my IWC 64cal; movement No;201188 Demi Hunter was deliverd on April 17th 1900 by IWC to Stafffer & Co in London.IWC still maintain parts from 1880s for repair work.
Now this is a company that we are lead to believe supplied PWC with movements (remember we are looking at about 12,000)this company with wounderfull records going as far back as Florentine A. Jones. Try asking them. I am on the IWC forum and will look forward to your answer, I have mine.
I actuly purchased my PWC as part of my IWC collecting history, it was the only way I could get my hands on a good PWC to compare, my PWC movement No is 2013 would seem to be about 1871.
and is key wind and set.
I have just looked at 'Old Watch Com' I believe an American company that offers some very pricy American watchs.They have no PWC at present for sale but state the following. 'Eugene Paulus orginized the Phildelphia Watch Company in 1886. The International Watch Company of Switzerland made the parts for the Company, and all movements were finished in the USA. Total production is about 12.000 Philadelphia made a small number of watches which are very scrace and very collectable.
PLEASE can anyone tell me how a statement refering to one of the most famous Pocket Watch Companys in the world can be made like this, Oldwatch Com is by far not the only one to make this statement just look at this board.
All I ask is a bit of proof, were did this statment originate from, could it be the Shugart and his co writers book ? If so I beleive Cooksey Shugart is a member of 149.
Perhaps Mr Jon Hanson might ask him. I am not being faceache just trying to sort out this on going saga about IWC & PWC.
All the best to you all and thank you for the way you have responded to my many entries on the board.
Trevor Lace