Very deceptive engraving on Waukegan watch...

[hc3]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1859-Conductor-CB-George-Waukegan-T...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/1859-Conductor-CB-George-Waukegan-Train-18kt-Gold-Watch_W0QQitemZ6607846629QQcategoryZ95168QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem)

Ebay item 6607846629 is dated 1859, but clearly the ase was made more like 1899 or 1909. The engraving looks old, though. What are your thoughts?

[hc3]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1859-Conductor-CB-George-Waukegan-T...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/1859-Conductor-CB-George-Waukegan-Train-18kt-Gold-Watch_W0QQitemZ6607846629QQcategoryZ95168QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem)

Ebay item 6607846629 is dated 1859, but clearly the ase was made more like 1899 or 1909. The engraving looks old, though. What are your thoughts?

[John Cote]

This is a classic example of what happend when people "repair, restore, or upgrade" (see the thread at this link old ref::CLICK HERE )a watch with parts from another watch. What you have here is a classic "Franken-Watch". Who will ever know when this was done. It could have been done by a watchmaker or a collector or someone out to make a buck. It may or may not have been done by the present eBay seller.

This is, however, what happens when people consiously or unconsiously mess with history by "fixing" watches with parts from other watches. This has been going on forever. It is going on more than ever now. The NAWCC needs to come out with guidelines and a set of principles for its members regarding ripping apart existing watches to upgrade existing watches.

This is the perfect example of one way history can be altered by upgrading.

[Jerry Matthews]

The eBay vendor says the Elgin movement serial number is 18153328. You don't need me to tell you that dates the watch to 1914 - 55 years after the 1859 date inscribed on the case! If Abraham Lincoln asked for the time, he certainly wasn't given it by this watch.

[Kent]

Setting aside the fact that the first Elgin watches weren't made until 1866 or so, doesn't anyone wonder what an 1859 inscription is doing on a stem-wind case that looks like the one in the picture?

[Jerry Treiman]

If this has any legitimacy whatsoever it may have been a simple-minded attempt, 80+ years ago, to replace a lost, stolen or damaged watch of sentimental value, without any awareness of the anachronistic nature of the substitution.

[GD1]

For what it's worth, I don't sense any fakery or chicanery here at all. It's way to easy to see through and the engraving has no significance to anyone from a historical perspective. Ok, why is it dated that way? I'm leaning in Jerry's direction on this one.

[Oliver Mundy]

The style of the engraving seems perfectly right for the 1850s, and it looks worn; moreover, the engine-turning round the perimeter of the cuvette looks (to me at least) very much in the style of early American case-making. It would be interesting to know if this cuvette has a winding-hole, or traces of one that has been filled.

One thing that is slightly disturbing is that the monogram on the back of the case does not match the name in the inscription, suggesting that perhaps the cuvette and the rest of the case come from two different sources. Even so, it could all have happened long ago.

Oliver Mundy.

[Jeff Hess]

I agree with GD1.

I have had many of these types of things over the years.

This is simply as speculated, an old watch that has had a new movement put in it. We have one for sale now roughly about he same age case with an almost identical movement in it!

Early Norris Allister Catalogues amidst their pages of movements for sale by all American Watch Companies, offered various repairs of watches. One of them was "Converting old keywinds to modern movements- Ten dollars"

Jeff Hess

[doug sinclair]

All,

The ad specifies an 18-size case. IMHO, that, in no way, is an 18 size case! A case from 1859 would probably be a key wind, or stem wind, lever set. No sign of a lever! If key wind, a very clever conversion to stem wind would have had to be done, and the keyhole in the cuvette would have to be disguised without disturbing the engraving. :confused:

Has anyone noted the post script the vendor has added re: the watch having a non-original movement?

[Bill Dermody]

I've been re-reading the comments on this watch, but this still doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm intrigued because I live just a few miles from Waukegan, home of Jack Benny. Waukegan, Illinois, was known as "Little Fort" until 1849, so in 1859, it would have had only a 10 year history as "Waukegan." In fact, it wasn't officially incorporated as "Waukegan" until February 1859, the year the watch was supposedly presented to Conductor George. I would almost expect the inscription to read "Little Fort" rather than "Waukegan." The railroad didn't become a reality until the mid 1850's, so the conductor inscribed on this watch would have been known to the populace for all of four or five years when they generously gave him an 18kt watch. Makes no sense. The town was a community of only about 3,500 in 1859, and I can't imagine there would have been sufficient riders on a train in Waukegan at that time to award such a watch to their favorite conductor. A note on the Waukegan Historical Society's web page says that the Illinois Parallel Railroad was created in 1855. Waukegan is today a medium sized town with fewer than 100,000 inhabitants. In 1859 it had a geographical area of just 5.62 miles. It was a port city on Lake Michigan, and my understanding is that the railroad was used to ship produce, grain and other products into the city, probably more so than as a commuter train. Maybe the explanation for all of this is lost in history, but it sure seems odd. I wish the seller had included a pic of the 18k hallmark. I notice the seller has included a phone number and email address. Maybe I'll try to contact him for further information on this watch's provenance. Sometimes, the provenance is more interesting to me than the watch itself, but these things don't give up their secrets easily.

[hc3]

I'm thinking it's a 25th (or other) anniversary presentation, which would be 1895, but lists only his start date. The case clearly is an original stem wind of a turn of the century, or later, style.

[ckeithjohnson]

I bought this watch and received it today. I have taken a picture of the Hallmarks for maker and gold content.

http://imagehost.darkernet.co.uk/i/1142107475_MVC-161F.JPG

I was concerned that not many bids were received but it is a beautiful case. It tests 18k everywhere and the seller guaranteed the gold content. The watch case without movement or crystal but with lift and latch springs weighs 59.95 pennyweights The case will always be a mystery but the intrinsic value is there. The engraved cuvette matches the case and the number stampings are identical. Can anyone with Neiblings or Ehrardt's books identify this maker? Thanks very much. No I'm not going to scrap it!!!!

[ckeithjohnson]

I have done a lot of research on this watch and can tell most of the story behind the presentation. The date of Sept 25, 1859 is NOT the date of the presentation but rather the date that the presenters were passengers on the Waukegan train when a person was killed by this train while walking on a narrow trestle. Conductor George apparently provide some services of great value to the passengers during a long delay stuck on the trestle. The presentation was probably made close to Conductor George's retirement in 1887 and this date is right for this case style. Mr. George died in 1903 and apparently his 17 year old son,Leslie inherited the watch. Leslie became the food service director for the Fred Harvey Company and like most of a younger generation mofified a beautiful and valuable case with a modern, up to date movement and had his initials LAG engraved on it. There is no deception in this watch just ensuing modifications at the pleasure of subsequent owners. Now you have the rest of the story!

[Jon Hanson]

TOP LINK DOES NOT WORK

[Jerry Treiman]

Keith - thanks for filling in the rest of the story. Unfortunately many collectors think only of the history of a watch up through its production and sale and ignore the history afterwards. Significant post-sale history can be unintentionally lost when people "restore" watches without doing their research first.