Is It Just Me?

[lpoleshuck]

I recently purchased a 12 size, 17J South Bend on e-bay. Without going into the details, I was pleased with the deal -- price, mechanical condition, appearance -- execpt for one thing. The seller's description, which was quite detailed, said about the crystal only that it is "domed and in great shape."

I assumed that since there was no mention otherwise that the crystal was glass. I was surprised when I received the watch to find that it had been replaced with a plastic crystal.

Question: Did I err in making this assumption? Or was the seller's description misleading? I would appreciate hearing others' opinions.

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Larry Poleshuck
New York

[This message has been edited by lpoleshuck (edited 12-18-2000).]

[lpoleshuck]

I recently purchased a 12 size, 17J South Bend on e-bay. Without going into the details, I was pleased with the deal -- price, mechanical condition, appearance -- execpt for one thing. The seller's description, which was quite detailed, said about the crystal only that it is "domed and in great shape."

I assumed that since there was no mention otherwise that the crystal was glass. I was surprised when I received the watch to find that it had been replaced with a plastic crystal.

Question: Did I err in making this assumption? Or was the seller's description misleading? I would appreciate hearing others' opinions.

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Larry Poleshuck
New York

[This message has been edited by lpoleshuck (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Jon Hanson]

Crystal is presumed glass; plastic is plastic! So the seller got you for a $10. watch glass crystal, unless you or one of your friends has an old crystal cabinet!

Jon

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Jon Hanson, moderator, nawcc#8801

[Charles Medsker]

You can take nothing for granted, when considering a bid on anything on the internet auctions! Ask questions before you bid? I seldom bid on any item if the seller doesn't have at least 50 positive feedbacks, and doesn't state a firm return policy in the ad. If you question the seller about a return policy and he answers, "I try to describe the item the best I can," this is not a return privilege! Don't ask me how I know.

[Bill Wisti]

I've noticed that some of the people that sell watches on eBay sell a myriad of other items, knowing only enough about each item to to truly only describe it as best they can. Is it possible your seller didn't realize the case was supposed to have a glass crystal rather than plastic? Or did they even KNOW it was plastic?

[Larry Jones 98326]

Larry,

My personal opinion is that the seller probably had no reason to think that a buyer would care if the crystal were plastic or glass. I would be very amazed if the seller were deliberately trying to mislead you. I personally could care less about crystals most of the time. On a particularly nice piece, I'll replace the plastic with glass.

I have discovered that some buyers, like you, seem quite concerned about the crystal, so when I sell I try to remember to mention the crystal material. But I forget now and then. Brass on the case, cracks on the dial, and problems with the movement seem to me to be the types of items that really need to be in the description.

I suggest you ask the seller in advance about the crystal material if original glass crystals are a requirement to you......I've never had a buyer complain about receiving a plastic crystal, but I have had a few ask before bidding. So, you aren't alone, but I think you may be in the minority.

When I buy, those things that cannot be fixed or replaced concern me the most.

One final comment - even with the best intentions, mistakes are made and problems are overlooked when writing watch descriptions. An occasional error is very different from a pattern of deceit. Like Charles suggests, I recommend checking feedback carefully, and I personally WILL NOT buy if the seller does not have a return privilige.


Larry


[This message has been edited by Larry Jones 98326 (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Larry Jones 98326]

Wayne,

I don't know when plastic crystals became common, my guess is not until at least the 1950's. I do have WWII plastic crystals in the original packing. I suspect that most watches in the 1920's still had glass crystals.

I was told by a former RR watch inspector that plastic crystals were not allowed on RR watches because of the possibility that the flexible crystal could be pushed in while the employee was working and temporarily stop the hands. I did crush a Bullseye pocket watch or two back I worked as a heavy equipment mechanic, so I think this was probably a genuine concern.

Larry

[Kent]

Larry, Wayne, et. al.:

Here's a few excerpts from time service rules that address crystals:

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Union Pacific Railroad Company
Rules and Instructions Govenering Time Service
Effective July 1, 1946
Eastern and South-Central District

43. Grass crystals only will be used on standard watches. So-called non-breakable, indestructible, or celluloid crystals are not permitted, due to their tendency to warp under heat and to absorb moisture which will rust the hands, pinions and plates.

Crystals which are cracked or chipped must be replacerd, as particles of glass may stop the watch.

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Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad (the Burlington Route)
Rules Governing Watch Inspection Service of This Company
April 1, 1949

4. DECORATED, LUMINOUS OR RADIUM DIALS AND HANDS, OR GOLD HANDS AND SO-CALLED NON-BREAKABLE GLASSES WILL NOT BE PERMITTED.

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The Ball Railroad Time Service
Office of General Time Inspector
Instructions To Local Watch Inspectors
October 15th, 1955

4. ... Watches smaller than 16 size, and any watches equipped with unbreakable crystals, luminous or decorated dials are not considered standard and will not be accepted.

*********************************

Kent

[Rick White]

A 1935 Swarthchilds catalog I have sold GS
"unbreakable" watch crystals. It even had an electric machine for making unbreakable watch crystals the "CRYSTAL FORMER". It claimed " forms any fancy crystal eliminating the need to carry large stocks of made-up crystals" It is very possible the plastic crystal could have installed 70 or so years ago. I have heard that some later model Hamilton RR watches came with plastic crystals???? http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/confused.gif


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Rick White
Watches Moderator

[Larry Jones 98326]

Kent,

The fellow who told me about crystals flexing was an inspector for the UP in Wyoming, late '40's to early '50's, I believe. I will see him in February or July, so I'll ask him if the crystal flexibility problem was the official word from the UP, or otherwise. I note that your UP rule is for the Eastern and South-central district.

Of course, in Wyoming, the wind can flex the crystal enough to stop the hands.........

Larry

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Given that plastic was available in 1935 and that the RR rules regarding plastic crystals as being unacceptable on some RRs were in the 40s, perhaps they were used in RR service until problems became evident and then they were outlawed.

Just a thought,

Greg

[Barry G]

"Crystal is presumed glass; plastic is plastic!"

I would [humbly, of course] disagree with this bold statement. Whatever the original meaning of "crystal" might have been, in common usage it now includes both plastic and glass variety. When I need a crystal replaced, my watch guy asks me if I want plastic or glass. "Crystal" does not imply glass any more than "telephone" implies rotary.

In my opinion, of course...

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://www.ultranet.com/~barry/watches.htm)

[hc3]

Non glass crystals are older than you think. I have a British advert (from the Robert Pringle material catalogue) for "Duro unbreakable watch CRYSTALS" from 1906, it's clear that they were not a brand new thing when this advert came out. The advert suggests that jewellers buy a complete outfit for fixing the crystals and says 500 sizes and shapes are stocked, with specials made to order.

These were made of cellulose acetate, until replaced by acrylic resins in the early 1930s.

So, the synthetic crystal predates your watch model!

[This message has been edited by hc3 (edited 12-20-2000).]

[Greg Davis]

I have to go along with Larry Jones on this one. Crystal definitely does not imply glass, and for the most part I don't think people generally make such an assumption (or care about the crystal material).

From my vantage point (as a wristwatch collector) glass crystals are a pain in the butt because once they are scratched, you might as well chunk it. Plastic crystals, on the other hand, take a buffing and come out looking like new (or at least regain a lot of their transparency).

Mind you, I did go to the trouble of buying a glass crystal to replace a yellowed plastic one on an old Elgin pocket watch I bought last year. I think on pocket watches the glass crystals do add a touch of class. But if I was carrying the watch around, I'd probably prefer a plastic crystal for the reasons mentioned above.

One thing that baffles me... how DO people scratch glass watch crystals so consistently? Why is is so difficult to find a watch with a glass crystal that isn't ruined?



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Regards,

- Greg

[Jon Hanson]

The fact is, Barry, that 1) how many people actually state what the crystal content is in ebay descriptions (?) and 2) a correct description SHOULD be "plastic crystal" or "glass crystal."

Jon H.

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Jon Hanson, moderator, nawcc#8801