E. Howard Co. or E. Howard Watch Co.

[crsides]

Looked at some watches last night. There was a Howard I was not particularly interested in until, you guessed it, I got home.

The watch was listed as a Howard Series 10. The dial had a reproduction look to it, and I am sure was signed "E. Howard Co. (over)Boston", just like the one on p254 of the 2002 price guide. There was no serial # listed and I don't remember one. The movement had an arrow with a star (21j), but I thought that was used by the "E. Howard Watch Co". I remember there was an EXTRA marking as well, although I don't remember where. Could even have been on the case. The watch was listed as a 16s, but seemed visually to be a little large than the Bunn Spl's I was looking at.

My questions are:
1) What was I likely looking at.
2) Could an E. Howard Co. dial be put on an E. Howard Watch Co. movement.
3) Have repro dial been made in this style for Howard watches.
4) What significance is the EXTRA marking, if in fact it was on the movement.

Sorry for being so vague, but I was getting starry eyed by the time I saw the Howard. Any help would be appreciated.

Charlie

[crsides]

Looked at some watches last night. There was a Howard I was not particularly interested in until, you guessed it, I got home.

The watch was listed as a Howard Series 10. The dial had a reproduction look to it, and I am sure was signed "E. Howard Co. (over)Boston", just like the one on p254 of the 2002 price guide. There was no serial # listed and I don't remember one. The movement had an arrow with a star (21j), but I thought that was used by the "E. Howard Watch Co". I remember there was an EXTRA marking as well, although I don't remember where. Could even have been on the case. The watch was listed as a 16s, but seemed visually to be a little large than the Bunn Spl's I was looking at.

My questions are:
1) What was I likely looking at.
2) Could an E. Howard Co. dial be put on an E. Howard Watch Co. movement.
3) Have repro dial been made in this style for Howard watches.
4) What significance is the EXTRA marking, if in fact it was on the movement.

Sorry for being so vague, but I was getting starry eyed by the time I saw the Howard. Any help would be appreciated.

Charlie

[Bob Roth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crsides:
Looked at some watches last night. There was a Howard I was not particularly interested in until, you guessed it, I got home.

The watch was listed as a Howard Series 10. The dial had a reproduction look to it, and I am sure was signed "E. Howard Co. (over)Boston", just like the one on p254 of the 2002 price guide. There was no serial # listed and I don't remember one. The movement had an arrow with a star (21j), but I thought that was used by the "E. Howard Watch Co". I remember there was an EXTRA marking as well, although I don't remember where. Could even have been on the case. The watch was listed as a 16s, but seemed visually to be a little large than the Bunn Spl's I was looking at.

My questions are:
1) What was I likely looking at.
2) Could an E. Howard Co. dial be put on an E. Howard Watch Co. movement.
3) Have repro dial been made in this style for Howard watches.
4) What significance is the EXTRA marking, if in fact it was on the movement.

Sorry for being so vague, but I was getting starry eyed by the time I saw the Howard. Any help would be appreciated.

Charlie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

E.Howard & Co. Keystone Howard

No

Yes

quality/case grade

Bob Roth
Chapter 149 charter member

[Hans Dahlke]

Charlie,

I think that there exist some dials (may even by doublesunk) that say E. Howard & Co/BOSTON that fit the Waltham-Howards made under contract for the Keystone Watch Case Company. These are probably the ones listed in the 800,xxx series in the Howard serial number records. I know that I have seen these on eBay, but since I do not track them specifically, I have no descriptive or graphical information.

If I remember correctly, the logo on these dials was very similar to the script logo on the late "L" split plate dials.

However, if the dial looked like the picture in Shugart's 2002 book, then it was definitely a fake reproduction dial. One of the supply houses is selling these screwy dials, and they are not even a reproduction of an actually existing dial.

Hans

[Tom McIntyre]

The repro dials are pretty distinctive with a fancy serif on the H and other junk.

Here is one of the early dials on a Waltham Howard made for E. Howard & Co.

http://www.awco.org/EHowardWatch/21JWalHowBridge/Front_small.jpg (http://www.awco.org/EHowardWatch/21JWalHowBridge/Front.jpg)

Here is the dial on a Howard Split Plate.

http://www.awco.org/EHowardWatch/EHCo21J/dial_small.jpg (http://www.awco.org/EHowardWatch/EHCo21J/dial.jpg)

Tom McIntyre
2nd VP Elect
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Kent]

Charlie asked "What significance is the EXTRA marking, if in fact it was on the movement."

The Keystone Howard Series 10 movements are marked "Extra Adjustment Five Positions Temperature", as is noted in an article on Keystone-Howard Standard Watches, NAWCC Bulletin, No. 319, April, 1999, pages 191-206.

I don't believe that Keystone-Howard literature ever actually specified what that meant. I suspect that it is partially marketing hype in that only the series 9 is simply marked "Adjusted" although early examples of others are only marked that as well. Later examples of the others are marked:

Series 0 : "Special Adjustment Five Positions Temperature"
Series 1 : "Extra Adjustment Five Positions Temperature"
Series 2 : "Adjustment Five Positions Temperature",
Series 5 : "Extra Adjustment Five Positions Temperature"
Series 10: "Extra Adjustment Five Positions Temperature"
Series 11: "R.R. Adjustment Five Positions Temperature"

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[crsides]

So, consenus is a Keystone Howard, repro dial (probably), 21j series 10, with "Extra" adjustment.

You guys are good.

Thanks, Charlie

[Mike S]

Could this be an example of a repro dial. I do not see it in the Shugart book:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10307&item=4104670921&rd=1

Mike

[Jerry Treiman]

That is a definite repro.

[Jon Hanson]

repro junk

[rrwatch]

On the auction Mike S referenced, "extra" is not only engraved on the movement, but also on the case. These markings are entirely independant of each other. The marking on the case indicates that the case is the highest quality gold filled case marketed by Howard. Since Howard was owned by the Keystone Watch Case Co., all of the "Howard" factory cases were made by Keystone and carry either Keystone or Crescent (also owned by Keystone) markings.