WOWWWEEE!!!!!!......WHAT A FUSEEEEEEE!!!!!!

[jimbob2154]

:biggrin: :eek: :biggrin: :eek: I KNOW, before anybody says anything, it's (fu-say') and the title didn't rhyme, but I don't care. You ought to see the watch. I tried for 2 hours inside to get decent pictures, but they just wouldn't come out good enough. Tomorrow, if it's not raining, I'll go outside and I know I can get some better ones. So, here are the ones from my first post about this watch.
Back (http://www.freephotohost.com/view.php?d=73&f=J.Johnson-back.jpg)
Dial (http://www.freephotohost.com/view.php?d=52&f=J.Johnson-dial4.jpg)
I have been searching on the computer and reading about fusees and most of what I found was about the two Tobias boys; and I don't want to start all that again. Anyway, Jon had said it would probably be a Liverpool, mid 1800's lever. Well, from all I read, and with my luck, I figured it would be one of the M.J. Tobias Swiss fakes.
Well, the watch made it here this afternoon, and Jon, you were exacly right!!! I was a bit apprehensive about removing the dust cover and what I would find. All that was showing was some nice engraving on the balance cock. I finally eased the cover off and WOW!!!!This thing is engraved over about 1/3 of the back. I also found Jos~h (Joseph) Johnson - 25 Church St. - Liverpool - #13061. The dial face is about 44 mm diameter. It has the largest jewels that I've ever seen in a watch, and they aren't ruby, they are diamond, I suppose since they are clear. The chain looks like it is chrome, or plated with something - but it looks brand new. There was very little dust at all inside and no fingerprints or smudges anywhere. I got my key and gave it about 8 or 9 clicks and away she went - ticking like a watch is supposed to!!! I wound it just a little more and set the time, and it kept perfect time for a little over 3 1/2 hours before running down!!! Shugart's book didn't have very much to say about him. Now, I know that somebody out there has got to know something about Joseph Johnson. Anybody care to tell me about him. All information will be greatly appreciated, and I will get the pictures up as fast as I can. jimbob (:{
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
ALSO: Under the dust cover, there is a J and a small symbol that is distorted and can't be read even with a loupe and then a B. JB
EDIT: Scroll down a couple more posts, I finally got a couple pictures!!! JB

EDIT: My pictures disappeared - I had to put them back on!!! JB

[jimbob2154]

:biggrin: :eek: :biggrin: :eek: I KNOW, before anybody says anything, it's (fu-say') and the title didn't rhyme, but I don't care. You ought to see the watch. I tried for 2 hours inside to get decent pictures, but they just wouldn't come out good enough. Tomorrow, if it's not raining, I'll go outside and I know I can get some better ones. So, here are the ones from my first post about this watch.
Back (http://www.freephotohost.com/view.php?d=73&f=J.Johnson-back.jpg)
Dial (http://www.freephotohost.com/view.php?d=52&f=J.Johnson-dial4.jpg)
I have been searching on the computer and reading about fusees and most of what I found was about the two Tobias boys; and I don't want to start all that again. Anyway, Jon had said it would probably be a Liverpool, mid 1800's lever. Well, from all I read, and with my luck, I figured it would be one of the M.J. Tobias Swiss fakes.
Well, the watch made it here this afternoon, and Jon, you were exacly right!!! I was a bit apprehensive about removing the dust cover and what I would find. All that was showing was some nice engraving on the balance cock. I finally eased the cover off and WOW!!!!This thing is engraved over about 1/3 of the back. I also found Jos~h (Joseph) Johnson - 25 Church St. - Liverpool - #13061. The dial face is about 44 mm diameter. It has the largest jewels that I've ever seen in a watch, and they aren't ruby, they are diamond, I suppose since they are clear. The chain looks like it is chrome, or plated with something - but it looks brand new. There was very little dust at all inside and no fingerprints or smudges anywhere. I got my key and gave it about 8 or 9 clicks and away she went - ticking like a watch is supposed to!!! I wound it just a little more and set the time, and it kept perfect time for a little over 3 1/2 hours before running down!!! Shugart's book didn't have very much to say about him. Now, I know that somebody out there has got to know something about Joseph Johnson. Anybody care to tell me about him. All information will be greatly appreciated, and I will get the pictures up as fast as I can. jimbob (:{
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
ALSO: Under the dust cover, there is a J and a small symbol that is distorted and can't be read even with a loupe and then a B. JB
EDIT: Scroll down a couple more posts, I finally got a couple pictures!!! JB

EDIT: My pictures disappeared - I had to put them back on!!! JB

[doug sinclair]

jimbob,

Baillie lists a Joseph Johnson of Liverpool, 1800-29.It mentions a lever watch in the Ilbert Collection, and 11 watches at N Y (New York?) University.

Loomes list a Joseph Johnson, Liverpool, 1814-51.

[jimbob2154]

I finally got a couple of decent pictures. Here's the back:

[jimbob2154]

Well, if that's the dial, here's the back. I don't know, you figure it out. It's past my bedtime:
DIAL:

I do have the minute hand; it's loose and had come off and I didn't notice until I had taken the pictures, but the second hand is missing. JB

[HenryB]

Very nice looking watch JimBob, what pure craftmanship

Is the dial solid gold ?

Wonder how long it was supposed to run without winding?

[doug sinclair]

jimbob,

The jewels in your watch are not diamond. Diamonds are found on antique and vintage watches, but they are pretty much all "rose cut". I have heard the jewels in yours referred to as "Liverpool Windows" because of their size and clarity. I have read that they are often made of aquamarine, but I suppose quartz might also have been used, or colorless corundum.

[Tom McIntyre]

Jimbob, Like Doug says the jewels are a clear semi-precious stone. I think chrysolite is the most common type used.

The inscription on the balance cock is particularly interesting. Most watches say either Patent or Detached. The Lever inscription probably indicates that it is a late Massey lever. Take a look at the impulse pin to see how it is attached to the balance and the shape of the "roller".

[jimbob2154]

DOUG: Thanks for the info and the dates!!

HenryB: I don't know if the dial is solid gold. But, it comes off of a frame that attaches it to the face of the watch. The dial itself is very thin, and is not tarnished at all like you would think brass would, and it just doesn't feel like brass. So, it's possible that it is. There are no markings or hallmarks of any kind anywhere on the watch. The only thing on the back of the dial & the frame it attaches to is where someone scribed the watch serial number. And, I haven't wound it all the way up to see how long it will run yet. I'll wait a while before I go that far.

TOM: From what I've read on the computer and looking at Shugart's on page 458, it has a Massey detached escapement. It is the Type V - dating from 1825-30. The roller is exactly like the picture, except for the fact that it is turned where the impulse pin is pointing down, like it does in Type III; but the roller is not at all like Type III, it is Type V.
I also read where some of Johnson's watches had diamond endstones on the balance, but the material for the other jewels was not mentioned. It also said that about them being called "Liverpool windows" because they are so large. And they are large AND clear. You can see right thru them and see all the movement going on under them. It is really hard for me to put it down; I have spent hours just sitting under the light with my magnifying headband on and just marvelling at the craftsmanship of the thing. It is quite remarkable, I think. jimbob (:{

[Oliver Mundy]

This seems to be a late (1840s) but good-quality product of a famous Liverpool firm. I have included a brief history on my web-page dealing with an earlier Johnson watch, http://www.horologia.co.uk/johnson.html .

Another snippet: - In 1816, when the U.S. Government wished to reward Captain Oliver Perry of the Navy for his successful actions against the British on Lake Erie, they decided on a gold pocket chronometer - made by Johnson. It is now in the NAWCC museum.

The case is probaly American-made; hence the lack of hallmarks.

I realise that my suggestion about the date seems to be at odds with the type of escapement used, but some forms of Massey escapement at least were still being made long after 1830; I once had a Massey III watch hallmarked 1849. I judge the date from the exposed set-up wheel and the narrow parallel-sided cock (a style which was imitated in the earliest Waltham designs).

[Frank Menez]

The Charles River Museum of Industry has the following watch in its European Collection-

Pocket watch by Joseph Johnson signed on the movement 25 Church St liverpool S/N 10385
Circa 1830 Ratchet Tooth Lever 19L 9 Jewels KW KS Gilt Plates Chain Fusee.

I believe that the NAWCC Museum has a Joseph Johnson Pocket Chronometer 25 Church Street Liverpool S/N 508 Circa 1813

Frank Menez
15520

[B Carter]

My information has it that "synthetic sapphire" is given its white color with pure aluminum oxide, red with chrome and blue with cobalt. These are the colors found in watch jewels. Flat ground irregular diamond chips were commonly used for balance end caps.
Barry Carter
Watchmaker
vergeworks.net

[jimbob2154]

BARRY: These jewels are as clear as glass - no color at all. You can see right thru them perfectly with no obstruction at all. They are rounded up from the edge toward the middle like a dome. There is even one VERY large one around the winding arbor - about 5mm across.
OLIVER: I enjoyed your website very much, especially the part about the Johnson's. I went to the recording of the watch you have and held mine up to my ear and listened, and they sound practically the same. I know there are quick trains (5bps) and slow trains (4bps), but I don't know if I am imagining it or not, but this watch sure seems to have a slower beat that a 4bps slow train. But, it keeps correct time. Did they make these watches to beat at a slower rate, or am I just imagining it?
And, I would sure love to see the watch that was presented to Captain Perry!!
FRANK: Where is the Charles River Museum of Industry located? I might try to go there someday. You say they have a 9 jewel - well, the best I can tell, mine has 11 jewels, and I suspect the plates to be gilt also.
I have found another mark on the watch. On the top plate, under the dial is the number "150". I don't know the significance of it, but it is all that is there. And, I have another question. This is a key wind and key set - it sets from the front, and the winding arbor is on the tapered, cone-shaped wheel. Why does the main spring barrel have a place to wind and a ratchet wheel and click on it? All I have done so far is to wind the tapered wheel with the winding arbor almost one full revolution, just to see if it would run. And it did - all the way down. I just need to know what the other "winder" is for before I do ANYTHING else. :confused: Thanks, jimbob (:{

[doug sinclair]

jimbob,

I think the third square shaft is what is known as a "set-up" regulator. I am not absolutely clear on what a set-up regulator does, and I am also not absolutely sure I have identified it correctly. Perhaps Barry might give us the benefit of his knowledge in this?

[B Carter]

jimbob.
I should have said "clear" instead of "white".
I haven't had this particular watch on my bench, but from my experience the ratchet wheel sits on the end of the barrel arbor to partially wind it to maintain power throughout the end of the fusee wind.
Barry Carter
Watchmaker
vergeworks.net

[jimbob2154]

BARRY: Thanks, that "clears" up both of those questions. :smile: Thanks again, jimbob (:{

[Frank Menez]

jimbob

The Charles River Museum of Industry is located in Waltham Masachusetts. If you have a chance to visit Massachusetts let me know. As a trustee and Curator of the museum I can make arrangements for you to see and examine the Johnson watch.

I would like to see the Hall Marks and case maker initials on your watch. This may give us a clue as to the date of manufacture

Frank

[jimbob2154]

FRANK: That's the one problem with this one - NO CASE!! Therefore, no hallmarks, or initials, or anything else except whats on the movement and under the dial. And one other thing, thanks for the offer to see the watch. I plan on doing a lot more travelling the next few years while I still can. I need to get out and see more of this beautiful ole USA!!!
The more I fool with this watch, the more I find out. If you look at the picture of the back of the watch, on the left of the picture, you see two (2) levers sticking out the side. I knew that the shiny silver colored one was the latch that held the hinged movement closed in the case. But, I couldn't figure out what the other lever was for - NOW I KNOW!! While the watch is running, if you push this lever to one side, it pushes a small flat spring into the teeth of the wheel turning the second hand and stops the watch. I guess it could be used as a stop watch or as a hack device to stop the watch while you are setting it. Does anyone know??? Thanks, jimbob (:{

[Frank Menez]

jimbob

There is a great deal of information on Joseph Johnson of Liverpool on the following.

Historical Clock & Watch Research

www.clockswatches.com (http://www.clockswatches.com)

Frank

[Jerry Treiman]

Regarding jewels - there was a scholarly article by Alvin Kleeb entitled "Watch Jewels of the Past" in the April 1962 issue of the Bulletin. He looked at jewels in many American and European watches for his study. He identified use of beryl, chrysoberyl, sapphire, garnet and diamond (probably the cap jewel) in one single movement by Joseph Johnson. He also found quartz plate jewels in another Johnson movement.

In addition to being one of the early important watch collectors Al Kleeb was a gemologist and member of the Gemological Institute of America. He used a number of means to identify and verify the various jewels. His Bulletin article was an abbreviated version of a more complete article in the Spring 1954 issue of Gems and Gemology (publication of GIA).

[stephenlouis]

Jimbob,

on a general note...I am really happy to see a fusee garner a little interest around here..I have tried in the past...maby their time is coming? :biggrin: :wink:

[Oliver Mundy]

In the 1870s, Thomas Yates of Liverpool experimented with escapements beating more slowly than the traditional British ‘slow train’ (14,400 [beats per hour] or 4 per second). I believe there are both 10,800 (3 per second) and 7200 (2 per second) versions. However, I do not know of any earlier examples. I have noticed that watches whose train rating (and timekeeping quality) is identical can show a distinct difference in ticking rate when compared directly, so that they get out of step in a minute or less; I have never managed to work out how this is possible, but there is no doubt that it happens.

[Doc Mark]

Morning, Jim Bob, and Listmates,

Been working out of town, but, as we're home for few days, figured I'd better see what you've all been up to. :smile:

Great fusee, Jim Bob! I am pleased that you have "gotten the fusee bug", and welcome you to our ranks! :biggrin:

Now that you have taken the plunge, and have obviously been smitten with these little critters, go for a few older, 18th century fusees, and I believe you will be happy you did!

I agree with Stephen Louis and am super happy to see such interest in fusees! Today, I can hardly wait for the Post Office to open, so I can go down into the Village and see what Jon has sent along for my little Greems fusee!!!! I, too, am hooked on these little timepieces! To me, they have "souls", and I, like you, cannot stop enjoying the fusees that I own, nor can I stop looking for others to add to my small collection! Congrats on finding a premier fusee; good luck on getting it cased and back to it's original shape; and welcome to the ranks of those infected with "fuseemania"! There is no known cure, so enjoy it!! :wink:
Take care and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[jimbob2154]

:biggrin: MAN!!!! What a curse to be afflicted with!! "FUSEEMANIA!!" Sounds like I need to go ahead and bid on that other "older" one that I've been watching for the last few days. Decisions, decisions - what a way to suffer!! It's the best suffering I know of!!
Thanks for the responses - FROM EVERYONE!!!
jimbob (:{ :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: