Pocket watch repair- the real story......long.....

[L.Larson]

first watch a year ago- Hamden Diadem 100 yr old family item, taken to watchmaker at 150 yr jewelry/watch shop. Clean and adjust, solder loose hinge $85.
9 months later stops after a few hrs at best.
second watch similar time- same place- Ham 974 in display case- clean and adjust $50. Still works OK. Oooops wasnt this the one that the second hand dropped off later?????

Last fall, english RR pw to clock maker who had a source to repair PW. Sent out for estimate, $106. Said do it. 6 weeks later discovered clockmaker was in a bad accident, finally made contact after 10 weeks total. After several 30 mile round trips the watch was back. Paid cash. At home found it was as left it, ran only 20 to 22 hours, and was fast 5 min an hour. Just returned it, nothing to lose, 'they will make it right' etc etc etc etc etc etc

During the time above individual was convalesing, I took a 6 size columbus hunter that did not wind to a recommended person some 25 miles away. He worked in the small shops front window as days of old. Eyeballed it wiht his loupe and said someone tried to file a mainspring to fit. Left it "just dont expect it in a hurry". Returned after 5 weeks, not done. 8 weeks total and he was off 2 weeks sick. Ten weeks now and still no watch. To his credit he looked at a family Studebaker that was not running and discovered a fluff of fuzz and removed it, it is working, no charge. When asked if it needed cleaning, he said 'seems to be working fine now, I'd just use it."

The beat still goes on (pardon the pun)- Just priority mailed the hunting columbus and the studebaker to a gentleman some 80 miles away that sells at a local upper end annual antique sale. He will look at them, call with an estimate, and I can pick them up in 2 months at the sale.

I talked to the owner of the original 150 yr jewelry store and he said he is losing his (elderly) watchrepairman, and it is an unbelieveable problem to provide service to his customers.
Folks I have read and heard of all these wonderous watch repairmen round and about, and about getting e mails from repairpersons in my area, and all I have gotten was words and about 5 opinions on why the English RR was off in time and running fast.
IMHO
Watch repair (of old style mechanical jeweled watches) is about where leather shoe repairmen are and repairmen that can fix a pre 1955 car--- literally disappeared.
We have a speciality here, and evidently some are called but few are able.
Time to unload your collections folks? there wont be anyone out there to repair em.
Pity my (our?) poor heirs!!!!! (I can hear it now- 'WHY did he buy all those watches that wont run and cant be repaired....)

Lars

PS couple weeks after I wrote the above...
The studebaker was returned cleaned and adjusted, so the 75+ yr old watchmaker wrote. however it lost one hand in shipping 80miles - based on my experience this is not uncommon, I have had several come off. Billed cost just under $50. The Columbus has been butchered earlier, when the last or even before that, mainspring was installed the barrel was badly distorted. The cap had to be soldered on and a lot of grinding had to be done to make it fit in the movement!!!! He is looking for a parts movement. So sounds like he is quite experienced and has parts sources. A genuine watchmaker at last????
The English RR is still not here, the injured fellow said he received it a week ago and would have it wound and try over the weekend and send out Monday (holiday) priority. As of 3 days later, nada, nutting.

Frankly this post may not need a reply.
Its simply FACT. Save your typing fingers for someone that has an answerable question!?

[L.Larson]

first watch a year ago- Hamden Diadem 100 yr old family item, taken to watchmaker at 150 yr jewelry/watch shop. Clean and adjust, solder loose hinge $85.
9 months later stops after a few hrs at best.
second watch similar time- same place- Ham 974 in display case- clean and adjust $50. Still works OK. Oooops wasnt this the one that the second hand dropped off later?????

Last fall, english RR pw to clock maker who had a source to repair PW. Sent out for estimate, $106. Said do it. 6 weeks later discovered clockmaker was in a bad accident, finally made contact after 10 weeks total. After several 30 mile round trips the watch was back. Paid cash. At home found it was as left it, ran only 20 to 22 hours, and was fast 5 min an hour. Just returned it, nothing to lose, 'they will make it right' etc etc etc etc etc etc

During the time above individual was convalesing, I took a 6 size columbus hunter that did not wind to a recommended person some 25 miles away. He worked in the small shops front window as days of old. Eyeballed it wiht his loupe and said someone tried to file a mainspring to fit. Left it "just dont expect it in a hurry". Returned after 5 weeks, not done. 8 weeks total and he was off 2 weeks sick. Ten weeks now and still no watch. To his credit he looked at a family Studebaker that was not running and discovered a fluff of fuzz and removed it, it is working, no charge. When asked if it needed cleaning, he said 'seems to be working fine now, I'd just use it."

The beat still goes on (pardon the pun)- Just priority mailed the hunting columbus and the studebaker to a gentleman some 80 miles away that sells at a local upper end annual antique sale. He will look at them, call with an estimate, and I can pick them up in 2 months at the sale.

I talked to the owner of the original 150 yr jewelry store and he said he is losing his (elderly) watchrepairman, and it is an unbelieveable problem to provide service to his customers.
Folks I have read and heard of all these wonderous watch repairmen round and about, and about getting e mails from repairpersons in my area, and all I have gotten was words and about 5 opinions on why the English RR was off in time and running fast.
IMHO
Watch repair (of old style mechanical jeweled watches) is about where leather shoe repairmen are and repairmen that can fix a pre 1955 car--- literally disappeared.
We have a speciality here, and evidently some are called but few are able.
Time to unload your collections folks? there wont be anyone out there to repair em.
Pity my (our?) poor heirs!!!!! (I can hear it now- 'WHY did he buy all those watches that wont run and cant be repaired....)

Lars

PS couple weeks after I wrote the above...
The studebaker was returned cleaned and adjusted, so the 75+ yr old watchmaker wrote. however it lost one hand in shipping 80miles - based on my experience this is not uncommon, I have had several come off. Billed cost just under $50. The Columbus has been butchered earlier, when the last or even before that, mainspring was installed the barrel was badly distorted. The cap had to be soldered on and a lot of grinding had to be done to make it fit in the movement!!!! He is looking for a parts movement. So sounds like he is quite experienced and has parts sources. A genuine watchmaker at last????
The English RR is still not here, the injured fellow said he received it a week ago and would have it wound and try over the weekend and send out Monday (holiday) priority. As of 3 days later, nada, nutting.

Frankly this post may not need a reply.
Its simply FACT. Save your typing fingers for someone that has an answerable question!?

[Tom Huber]

Lars, I can sympathize with you. I found the same thing about 25 years ago. That is when I became determined to learn more about watches. I would recommend, first a membership in NAWCC if you don't have one. Join a local chapter and talk to the oldtimers about repair and the works of a watch. Get a book and study, study, study until you can name all of the parts of a basic watch, and know how a watch works. You can't beat knowledge. In the long run, it will save you many dollars and heartaches.

Remember, the knowledge doesn't come easy, but work at it as you can. Best of luck on your collecting.

[John Cote]

Lars,

Just to expand on what Lars said. One thing knowledge can hopefully get you is the ability to decide what to buy and what not to buy. I already hear my heirs saying "what the hell is he doing accumulating those old watches". But....most of my watches work and are marketable and are labeled and catalogued so that the auctioneer will know what he has, and the ingrates will get their money (I think).

Knowledge should allow a collector to accumulate watches which are working, or at least will not need parts that you know you can't get. Knowledge will allow a collector to at least make some small repairs himself. I hope knowledge will allow a collector to accumulate watches that will be appealing to heirs or, at least the bidders at the auction.

I know lots of collectors who have 500-1000 pocket watches, but I know very few collectors who have 500-1000 watches that somebody really wants. Knowledge is not come by easily, but it is worth the effort.

Boy did that sound pompous and arrogant...sorry.

John Cote

[Jon Miller]

I'll jump in here. I only recently started accumulating a modest collecton of IWC Schaffhausen pocket watches, with the intention of using every one of them. So far, I have blundered badly only once, buying a watch (at a regional mart) with a bogus repro dial and hands (still smarting from that one, but live and learn, etc...). Otherwise I have been lucky in my acquisitions, and here's my main point: I have found a 30-year-old watchmaker/jeweler who has set every one of my watches to running flawlessly and accurately. Everything I buy, I give immediately him to for a complete going over. He is very skilled, very savvy about watches (I should heed his warnings more), and will almost certainly outlive me. He can't be the only young committed professional who loves his work out there. He's not cheap or fast, but I pay what he asks and tell him to take his time. I hope he makes a very good living and keeps at it for a long, long time. If I could not afford him, I would stop collecting.

[Tom Huber]

John, You said more explicitly what I meant in my prior post. The knowledge will help you to know what you are buying and what it will take to get it fixed if need be. Lars mentioned in his post about a second hand coming loose. This is an example of what a little knowledge and experience can do. As many know, a second hand does come off occasionally, and is very easily reattached. One need not take a watch to a professional for something like this if one takes the time to learn how hands are basically friction fit and how to reinsert one with a pair of tweezers. Knowing what you are looking at in a watch and how to interpret the possible problems is what will save you time, money and heartache. Tom

[John Cote]

Just to add to my earlier pompous post. I have lots to learn and still make occasional mistakes which turn into parts watches. The great thing about collecting anything, is that the light bulb can blink on in your brain every day.

Cote

[BMW]

Lars,
How's your eyesight? How about your digital dexterity? Eye-to-hand coordination? If they're all pretty good, might I suggest that you purchase a set of repair VHS tapes, buy Henry Fried's watch repair book, and learn to at least service your own watches. I don't believe that anyone will be as careful as you when it comes to handling your own watches. I am new at repairing the little machines but truly enjoy it and it has saved me lots of money and heartache (Caused a bit too, but I think that I'm ahead of the game).
How does a car mechanic treat cars that aren't their own? Rarely would they be as meticulous as the owner if the owner only knew how(or had time) to do the repairs.
Another stretched comparison: When I had my wisdom teeth pulled, I opted for a local anesthetic :biggrin:. Why? Because I figured that if I'm awake, and watching the goings on, that the DDS would be more likely to use finesse when doing his job. The end result was that I healed in 1/2 the time that most people do because the surgeon was more careful not not to injure adjacent tissue etc. because I was awake and "watching". I pictured myself being under a general anesthesia and having the surgeon placing his boot on my chin to get extra leverage. This he could do if I was out cold but not with my being conscious.
Moral: Remain conscious and in control of your watches' destinies by learning to do a lot on your own. 'nuf said. JMHO.
BMW

[This message has been edited by BMW (edited 02-22-2001).]

[L.Larson]

Iffen I wanted to be a watchmaker I wooda been long ago? And some of these fine items I have bought from folks on this board....
Perhaps we should get closer to home, as I just left another board of an interest of mine, and the gab is they are going to, literally, legislate quality standards in their bylaws. In udder words 'the group' will fix it.
BAH HUMBUG. Thats the (underlline) problem with special interest groups. They attempt to be self policing but cant police their own members.
My original post and all commentary stand.
In FACT, I chatted with two of the real people in my post and they ARE members of either AWC or NAWCC, since we talked about meetings.
Dream on- meetings. With these guys????
Buy from them???????
Well folks, the problem is clubs. Better known as 'good ole boys' clubs. Band together for the common good sharing common interests. Set up bylaws and on and on.
IMHO
The good ole boys concept starts all the way from the top- Attorneys, Physicians, Architects, Engineers, Real Estate folks, and any other splinter groups that dare to call themselves 'professional'.
The original intent is good but untimately the group lacks spine to do for the public, they protect their own, but cant protect their own from each other.
Fresh into PW not too long ago, I found on this list chatter from one member and his letter(s) to the board, which could/would do nothing about the problem he had encountered.
Dream on, to think I, or anyone else, is going to simply jump over the stick and learn to repair watches is beyond comprehension.
We have the tail wagging the dog here. Want to collect watches? Learn to repair 'em first.
I am amazed. On the other hand, I really am not.

L.

[John Cote]

Lars,

I don't think you have to be a watch maker to be a collector. Most of the collectors I know use watch makers and some even have watch makers.

As for "good ole boys clubs" and "protecting our own" and whatever...sure, every club has some of this...it is human nature. However, I really believe in this organization, at least in the grassroots, local chapter part. We want new blood...we want to cultivate old members from new members. Can you get bad advice here???Sure! But can you get friendly helpfull advice???Most of the time!

Most of us who are really concerned with the future of this association know that we have to have what the corporate types call "buy-in" from all the certified nut case watch and clock collectors (you sound like you might have potential in this regard) or the association will die. Come on...give us a break...we may be a "good old boys' club" but we will let anyone in to help "protect our own".

Knowledge Knowledge Knowledge...come and git it!

John Cote http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by John Cote (edited 02-23-2001).]

[Greg Frauenhoff]

I agree with John about Knowledge, Knowledge and more knowledge. But another point worth considering is Expectations, Expectations, Expectations. I think Tom McIntyre commented that many buyers want to pay flea market prices (or ebay auction prices) for watches and then get a retail price warranty. The same holds true for watch repair. There are people who can repair an old watch exceedingly well, but if more than a routine cleaning is required I doubt that many will do substantial work for under $100. On the other, there are many watches that aren't worth putting more than $100 into. If you want to spend only $50 to get them running you shouldn't expect too much as a result.

Most old watches saw years of service before they were "retired". Many an old watch probably ended up a drawer when it's balance staff broke, but most probably had a bunch on nagging little problems long before this "terminal" illness.

To expect that a routine cleaning and oiling (or balance staff repair) will somehow magically make an old watch like new again is unrealistic, in my opinion.

A friend of mine recently quoted from a letter written in 1895 by the Columbus watch company to a fellow who had purchased one of their $10 movements. The fellow had evidently written complaining about the accuracy of his new mvt in certain positions. Columbus wrote saying essentially that his expectations for a $10 mvt were too high. If he wanted a better timepiece he should have purchased one of their $30 mvts.

The point is that people have different expections from an old watch. Some want it to run like new (which for most 100 year old watches is nearly impossible, and sometimes people don't actual understand what running like new meant in 1890).

Just a few ramblings which may or may not be terribly relevant.

Greg

[Tom Huber]

I would like to add one more post for Lars. I believe that John was accurate in saying "not learning to repair watches,but learn how to service them". I have saved myself many dollars by doing simple servicing my watches myself. Some examples are replacing my own mainsprings, adjusting the depth of the hands, fixing an overbank problem, tighting a loose screw on a winding/setting mechanism, etc. I could name many other services that can be learned by a novice that would cost you big bucks to take the watch to a watchmaker. I am not a watchmaker. I cannot fabricate parts. I cannot vibrate a hairspring. Twenty-five years ago, I didn't know one part from another. I joined the chapter and found those who are quite pompous, and unwilling to help anyone. I also found those who were willing to share knowledge and experience. From those people, I have learned a great deal. This knowledge has helped me to recognize the qualities on a watch that are most important to know when collecting, ie originality, condition, general cost to repair or service. You can continue to purchase items, and pay for repair, but I believe that I speak for many others. Knowledge is power. Tom

[Jon Hanson]

Or, Lars, get on board with the nawcc and chapter 149 Mentor Program to help pocket watch collectors.

Please read your current bulletin for details.

Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801, President and founder, The Early American Watch Club, chapter #149

------------------
Jon Hanson, moderator, nawcc#8801

[BMW]

Lars,
Maybe you're not amazed but I certainly am. Wow! That was some over-reaction to a simple, constructive suggestion. http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/confused.gif

P.S. For anyone who's interested, there's a great article in Horological Times July, 1999, written by Fred S. Burckhardt in his Rock Quarry segment called "Watchmakers....a Vanishing Breed". I believe that it relates well to this thread and is kind of a kick in the butt.

[Dan Alexander]

Lars: I was miserable before I found a
retired jeweler here in Nashville who gives
my watches loving care and me an ancillary
education. It took me some time to learn
that one does not take a railroad grade
pocket watch to any of the big name jewelers
in this town: most know not what they do!

It also takes an education/experience like do not place the pocket watch near a telephone!!!!!! My jeweler friend showed me how that can ever so slightly magnetize the hair spring putting a hitch in your tics!

[L.Larson]

Finally, I recall a conversation I had with an Architect friend about 15 yrs ago. Asked him what the difference between an amateur and a professional was. He answered 'the amount of mistakes they make'. Since then I have felt the answer was gospel.

My experience with watch repairmen, has been that of 6 watches worked on by 4 different repairmen, 83% of them were poorly or improperly repaired. Hardly a record of competent professionals, more like bunglers I believe. And 3 of the 4 were members of one or both of the ballyhooed 'professional watch and/or clock organizations'. I rest my case.



------------------
Lars