Information on 2 pocket watches

[jfisher]

My aunt gave me some pocket watches that I would like to find out more about. I do not know anything about their history. I have several pictures of two of them. Please tell me about them as much as possible.. Thanks

I have more pics if you will send me your email address. TKS

[jfisher]

My aunt gave me some pocket watches that I would like to find out more about. I do not know anything about their history. I have several pictures of two of them. Please tell me about them as much as possible.. Thanks

I have more pics if you will send me your email address. TKS

[Kent]

jfisher:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's. Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

If you can tell us about (or post a picture of) the trade marks or names stamped into the inside back of the case, we may be able to tell you a little about the case material and its manufacturer.

It would be helpful if you could post a picture of the movement (the "works"), the clearer and sharper, the better. We should be able to identify your watches by the shape of the plates and the markings on the movements, especially the movement serial numbers. In trying to open the watch, you might find the information in "How To Open A Pocket Watch Case" (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/opencase.txt) useful.

Since the system only permits one picture per reply, you can reply once for each picture.

Its also helpful if you can post all the markings that are on the movement (the "works") in case they can't be seen in the picture(s).

Good luck,

[jfisher]

Here is another image..

[jfisher]

Here is the 3rd image of the Illinois Watch Company watch.

[jfisher]

This is an image of the totally unknown watch..

[jfisher]

2nd image of the unknown watch..

[Kent]

jfisher:

The Illinois Watch Company was founded in 1870 as the Springfield Watch Co. of Springfield, IL. It turned out about five million watches before being sold to the Hamilton Watch Co. of Lancaster, PA, in 1928. Illinois was very well-known for its railroad grade watches, especially the Bunn Special (an example of which can be seen in the old ref::1923 Baird-North Catalog[/url]) and the Sangamo Special grades. The Bunn Special's name can be traced back to John and Jacob Bunn, two of the founding directors of the company. Hamilton continued production in Springfield for several years and then moved operations to the Hamilton plant in Lancaster. Illinois watches continued to be produced as different designs from Hamilton watches until 1949 when the name was retired. See American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide, William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1985 (still in print - see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)).

Your Illinois watch is a model 4, also known as the Getty model, probably built around 1903, +/- 2 or 3 years, but not being able to read the serial number in the picture of the movement, I can't can't tell for sure. The model of a movement is the overall design of the movement. Although there may be some variations of specific models from some manufacturers, the model defines the layout of the (gear) train which usually determines the size and shape of the plates and/or bridges. The model design also includes the design of the vast majority of the parts. Some models were of less-than-great design for one reason or another, and they were only in production for a few years. Other models were the result of very successful designs and may have continued in production for more than twenty or thirty years.

The watch is a hunting-case design. A hunting-case movement is one that is designed to fit into a case that has a protective cover over the crystal (glass). The cover is released by pressing down on the crown (the correct name for the winding knob). The movement is designed such that the winding stem is at the 3 o'clock position and that the seconds dial is at the 6 o'clock position. It's made this way to facilitate the proper means of holding the hunting-case (HC) watch when opening it.

When opening the cover of a HC watch, always hold the watch in your right hand, with the crown at your right thumb and with your left hand over the cover. Once the cover is released, ease it open with your left hand, without letting it hit hard as it swings open. The watch will be in the correct position to read the time. There are no proper "stops" to catch the cover and letting it spring open eventually damages the hinge. Similarly, when closing the cover, always press in the crown with your right thumb until the cover is firmly closed, then release the crown so that the inner catch, latches the lid in place. "Snapping" the cover closed without pressing in the crown eventually wears away the lip that the inner catch grabs onto.

You Illinois watch is also lever-set. Lever-set means that you have to pull out a lever to allow the crown (winding knob) to engage the hands to set them. The lever is at the 23 minute position. To set the time, the lever is pulled out, parallel to the surface of the dial. Usually, people hold the watch in their left hand and use their right thumbnail to catch the lever's little tab and pull it out.

As the name inside the case indicates, your Illinois watch's case was made by Joseph Fahys & Co. The book, "History of the American Watch Case," Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore
Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971 (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm), has a bit to say about Joseph Fahys & Co.: Joseph Fahys came to the United States in 1848 and opened a shop in New York City in 1857. In 1861 he built another factory in Carlstadt, NJ and ran it under the name of Foutenbach & Sons until 1878 when it was re-named under Joseph Fahys. In 1882, operations moved to Sag Harbor, NY, which is a former whaling port on Long Island. See [url="http://www.sagharboronline.com/history_files/hist04.htm"]Sag Harbor In Its Industrial Heyday: The Watchcase Factory. The company went out of business during the Great Depression. Interestingly, according to "Fahys of Sag Harbor, New York, Part 1," John H. Wilterding, Jr., NAWCC Bulletin, No. 332 (June 2001), pp. 316-24, in 1937 the Bulova Watch Co. leased part of the Fahys Sag Harbor factory building. Bulova made watch cases there until the plant was closed in 1980.

I'm not clear if your case is gold or gold-filled. Perhaps the inside of the cuvette (the inner back cover) has additional information, such as the case's grade name.

You didn't provide enough information to make enable us to say much about your "unknown" watch. Perhaps you can open it and post pictures of the inside of the case back and of the movement. Please also write all the watch and case markings (expecially the movement serial number) in your post in case they can't be seen clearly in the pictures.

[jfisher]

Kent, Thanks very much for the info. I will see if I can get some clearer pictures of the unknown watch. It measures 1 9/16 inches in diam. There are no names or numbers on the front of the watch. The back cover latches and inside is a cover plate over the mechanism with two holes for the keys for winding and setting. On the inside of the back is a symbol with the number 0,800 enclosed inside. There is also what appears to be a rose or flower stamped to the right center. It also has the numbers 46666 next to the hinge. On the inside of the second cover there is a number which appears to be hand imprinted with punches. The number appears to be 46666. There is also an imprint of a fish and possibly 4WIVAS.

The numbers on the back cover of the case of the Illinois watch are 7125927. Under this number there is some hand etched numbers: 12432ncb and 13918ncb. These numbers were determined with a 30X microscope and were still hard to make out on the last numeral before the ncb. The serial number for the mechanism is 1544866 and it is 15 Jewels.

Thanks for all the help..

[Russ Snyder]

jfisher,

Your Illinois watch is a 16 size, 15 jewel, Grade "173" Model "4" from 1900. The Illinois Watch Co. made a total of 25,770 watches in this configuration in a total of 101 separate production runs between 1896 - 1910. The double-sunk glass enamel dial on the watch is correct.

Russ

[Kent]

jfisher:

Your unidentified watch appears to be a rather modest watch. It looks Swiss to me, but I'm not familiar enough with early American watches to say for sure that it isn't domestic.

Perhaps the watch case is silver and the ".800" indicates that it is .800 fine. The tiny numbers and marks, hand-scratched on the inside of the back of the case, are watchmaker's or jeweler's marks. When watches were serviced, the watchmaker would place his mark and/or a date code inside the back. The marking might include a code to indicate the type of service that was done. Thus, when the watch came back, the watchmaker would instantly know just when he (or she) last worked on it.

Perhaps somebody else can add to this,