Illinois Bunn Special 60 Hour w/Salesman Case Value

[mailman Sam]

Hi,

I am a beginner pocket watch collector and have been watching online auctions to learn about the value of the watches.

On Sunday, I saw an Illinois Bunn Special 60 Hour watch with the following description.


"Illinois Bunn 60 hr salesman display back pw
C. 1929 the height of the roaring 20's
Dial: near mint double sunk. There's a minute hairline near the 8 that I can't get to show in the photo. Railroad of the finest grade.

Case: near as mint as mint gets. This is a salesman sample display back, marked "Illinois Watch Co, Springfield" on both the bezel and the back.

Movement: clean, running, serviced, keeping time. No jeweler’s slips. Mint. 60 Hour Bunn Special was the best a man could buy in this era. Just the fact that a watch would run for 60 hours was the most elite purchase, and perhaps the most expensive selection a person could make in choosing a pocket watch.

Other notes: this is a hard to find watch. Look around on ebay or ask your vintage experts and see how many are out there and at what price. Not many, and not often. Smart investors and collectors have grabbed every example they could and socked them away in collections. This is a fully signed and authentic watch with virtually no wear."


The bidding went up gradually during the day. Over the last few minutes the bidding went a little crazy. The watch sold for over $600. I have seen similar watches go for $300 to $400.

Does the salesman case really increase the value that much to justify the higher amount?

Thanks,
Sam

[mailman Sam]

Hi,

I am a beginner pocket watch collector and have been watching online auctions to learn about the value of the watches.

On Sunday, I saw an Illinois Bunn Special 60 Hour watch with the following description.


"Illinois Bunn 60 hr salesman display back pw
C. 1929 the height of the roaring 20's
Dial: near mint double sunk. There's a minute hairline near the 8 that I can't get to show in the photo. Railroad of the finest grade.

Case: near as mint as mint gets. This is a salesman sample display back, marked "Illinois Watch Co, Springfield" on both the bezel and the back.

Movement: clean, running, serviced, keeping time. No jeweler’s slips. Mint. 60 Hour Bunn Special was the best a man could buy in this era. Just the fact that a watch would run for 60 hours was the most elite purchase, and perhaps the most expensive selection a person could make in choosing a pocket watch.

Other notes: this is a hard to find watch. Look around on ebay or ask your vintage experts and see how many are out there and at what price. Not many, and not often. Smart investors and collectors have grabbed every example they could and socked them away in collections. This is a fully signed and authentic watch with virtually no wear."


The bidding went up gradually during the day. Over the last few minutes the bidding went a little crazy. The watch sold for over $600. I have seen similar watches go for $300 to $400.

Does the salesman case really increase the value that much to justify the higher amount?

Thanks,
Sam

[GandalfPC]

People do like the salesmans cases, but I think that the price reflected the mint 60 hour bunn movement and the good condition dial...

Jason Goldman
Apprentice Watchmaker

[John Cote]

Sam,

In my opinion, and given what I have seen over the last 25 or so years of watching, a salesmans sample case, or glass back case, should lower the value of this watch. A 60 hour Bunn Special in its proper case will almost always bring more, unless the case is really beat up. All of these 60 hour Bunn Specials, with the exception of some of the later Hamilton Elinvar versions, were cased at the factory in marked BS cases. These cases are worth much more than salesmans cases.

Also, just because it looks like there is furious bidding for a watch on eBay, doesn't mean that the watch actually sells to a "real person/buyer". I am not saying anything about this auction in particular, but when you see something that looks fishey, check out the history of everyone involved. Or, better yet, check it out before you get involved.

JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[terry hall]

what John said........

[terry hall]

one reminder.... the 23j 60 hour versions were not factory cased until 1929, in a model 28 case..

and .... the first model bunn special case preceeded the introduction of the sixty hour movement...

[John Cote]

Several people have emailed me and said I might have been wrong when I said that all 60hr BS watches came cased in BS cases from the factory with the exception of some late ones. I went back and re-read Meggers and he says that only some of the "Type 1" 21j 60hrs were cased at the factory, and, as Terry mentioned, Meggers says nothing about the first couple of types of 23j BS 60 being cased at the factory or not.

I am fairly sure that some earlier, non-60hr Bunns were cased in BS model 1 cases at the factory. I would bet that you will never get a collectory/wathch buyer to agreee that any 60hr, not in a factory case is "right".

Maybe Kent has the original factory ads. I am willing to admit it if I made a mistake, but I am just not sure. All the ads I have seen for the 60hr BS have shown it in a factory case.

Help?

JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[terry hall]

John,
This thread

old ref::http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=2386079361&f=4316035461&m=2566006461&r=2666006461#2666006461

From last december has some of the info... Kent posted then, but his links are no longer active...

The info about the 23-sixties being cased is in Megger's discussion in the front of the book under 'factory cases'..

I have the ads for the introduction of the cases and the sixty hour, but I am 2 cheep to get a scanner... I have been 2 bad for santa clause too... :frown:

Meybe Kent will post again and Tom will archive the scans.... hint hint....

edited to add.....

The 'factory cases' discussion also give a time line for the cases.......

[John Cote]

Well Boiz,

I was wrong. Here is the ad that proves it. I still don't think you will ever be able to convince a collector that any 60hr BS in a case other than a BS case or one of the late "pointed bow" cases Hamilton used when it ran out of BS cases is "original". But anyway, this ads proves that they did at least offer to sell the first ones as movements only. This is a 188k file but it is a cool ad.

http://www.interstatetime.com/Posts/images/BS-AD-1926.gif

JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[mailman Sam]

Hi,

I forgot to mention that the case shows Illinois Watch Co Springfield on the edge of the bezel.

Would this make the case more rare?

[terry hall]

Thanks John for scanning that document.....

The 'proof' to some would be the serial number of the movement and dating it.... not sure, but i think there was a point where the movement only was not offered.... correct me if i am wrong!

The earlier ad introducing the first model case clearly shows a non motor barrel movement in the ad and the ad dates to before the introduction of the sixty hour 21 j ...

[Tom Huber]

I have a 60 hr, 23J BunnSpec, SN 4,492,619, that is not in a BS case, and, to my knowledge, is in it's original case. This watch is a "first run" for 60 hr movements. This would suggest to me that the early ones were not factory cased. Mine is in a NAWCCo GF RR style case.

Watchman said he wouldn't buy one if it wasn't in a BS marked case. Well, I bought mine. I guess getting it for $30 one doesn't worry what kind of case it is in.

Tom

Tom Huber

[Kent]

Just to firm up the references,

John's ad (actually half of the ad) is nearly identical to one that appeared in the June 1926 Locomotive Engineers Journal. Here's a link to the full ad:
http://elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1926/m_06_illinois_60hr_bunn_special.html
(you should copy this link and paste it in your browser address bar since directly linking to this website from the NAWCC Message Board is not possible).

The 60-hour movements were still being marketed by mail-order retailers in non-Illinois cases as late as June 1928 as seen in the ad at this link:
http://elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1928/m_07_Loftis.html
(again, you should copy this link and paste it in your browser address bar since directly linking to this website from the NAWCC Message Board is not possible).
The ad doesn't say that its not an Illinois case, but the offer of the watch in a 25-year case for $50 while the the 992 in a 25-year case is listed for $55 and the BWR in a 20-year case is also shown for $55, makes it fairly certain.

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[terry hall]

Hi Kent and thanks, as usual!

On that same site is the introduction for the cased Bunn special watches

http://elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1925/m_04_illinois_bunn_special_cased.html

[cut and paste link in browzer]

This shows the model 9 , non motor barrel movement. Note the 'delay' in the availability of the 10kgf version..... and... the introduction of the aluminium box....

[John Cote]

Tom,

It is certainly possible that your watch was sold as a movement only. It is also possible that the case it is in is the one it was originally put in by the original owner. I too would buy a non-BS cased 60 hr if the price was right. In fact, I will give you sixty bucks for yours and you can double your money. (har har har) (nice watch) :wink:

JohnCote
President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC
Member Chapter 149 (Member #105)
http://www.interstatetime.com

[terry hall]

Tom,

Just for confirmation, does your watch have "MOTOR BARREL 60" around the winding wheel?

And it does not say "SIXTY HOUR" above Bunn Special?

This run of movements is a 'split' run of model 9 and model 14 movements..
Have noted 4492620 as being like yours.... The lowest seen so far is 4492510... highest model 9 seen so far is 4492196. Highest model 14 from this run seen is 4492933.

[michael chamelin]

Expanding on the comments of factory cased bunn specials vs movements only.... in the Illinois book on pages 219 and 220 you will see the 21 and 23 jewel bunn specials for sale as a movement only for 56.00 and 65.50 list prices respectively, these are from 1930 Factory Advertisements....it makes sense that a movement could be bought with out a case as one might be seriously damaged and need to be replaced while being out of the case by carelessness while being serviced etc......with that in mind, you never know when a watch movement has been recased unless it is with it's original paperwork or box and papers......as you or I could take consecutive numbered watchs and switch the cases and they would appear to both be original but of course now they are not.....just my 2 cents worth....michael chamelin

[Barry G]

Regardless of whether or not the watch in question is supposed to be in a marked Bunn Special case or not, it's obvious that a display case -- even a signed Illinois one -- is not the correct case for it. Display cases are neat, and I love to be able to show off fancy movements, but they certainly couldn't be used in RR service. Originally, they were used by salesmen to show off the merchandize, but I don't think the watches were ever sold or purchased in a display case. In my experience, most watches that are in signed display cases are the result of somebody having a nice movement with a missing or damaged case and deciding to stick it into a display case.

If it's a low grade watch, especially one with an attractive movement, I think signed display cases can add to the value. With a high grade RR watch such as a Bunn Special, however, I definitely think the display case hurts simply because it announces to the world that the watch is not in its original, or even a proper, case.

Just my $0.02...

Barry

My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[Tom Huber]

To Terry and John,

First for Terry--The watch is in the Safe deposit box, so I can't say exactly what and how the words are listed on the movement. It is definitely a 60 hour as I had to put a mainspring into it. I was lucky in that I had several 60 hr mainsprings in my stock. The watch is a model 14. Pix of this watch were in Kent and Ed's RR Corner a while back. Can't remember the exact issue. I'm sure Kent knows exactly which one it was.

For John, I would ask at least $65. I do have to eat you know.

Tom

Tom Huber