VANGUARD WIND INDICATOR

[Kent]

Larry:

1. Model 1912? Maybe, maybe not, what's the serial number? Jerry Treiman just posted a note (on the Waltham Topic of the Pocket Horology Discussion Forum (http://www.pocketwatch.org/UBB/Forum2/HTML/000115.html)) saying that a 1916 Waltham material catalog, with a 1922 price list, offered to add a wind indicator to a Vanguard for $5 (you'd have had to send the watch back to the factory).

2. Original dial? Later Vanguards had painted dials, but 1933 seems early for this. Larry Treiman once sent me a copy from a 1936 Waltham material catalog showing Dial No. 1609 (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/1936_walt_dial.jpg), an enamel C.P.R. 24 hour dial for which there is a choice of having it set up for a wind indicator. The picture appears to be of a double-sunk dial

3. Replace the "PLATE THAT IS PART OF THE REGULATOR (DAMASKEENED WITH S - F)" otherwise known as the balance cock? I don't think that this is a good idea. These are usually matched to the balance and rest of the watch. Usually they carry the serial number on the bottom. I'd live with the scratch.

Kent

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 06-27-2001).]

[LARRY STEWART]

THANKS FOR THE INFO KENT.
THE SERIAL NO. IS 26964484.
ANY INFO YOU HAVE IS APPRECIATED.
THANKS AGAIN,
LARRY

[Kent]

Larry:

According to the serial number list in "Waltham Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide," Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1976 (A new edition is still in print - see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)), S/N 26,964,484 is part of a run of two thousand Vanguard Wind Indicators from 26,964,001 to 26,966,000. Its listed as a model 1908. I'm not sure I fully understand the distinction between models 1908 and 1912. As best as I know, during a certain period, the model 1912 was listed as the winding indicator version of the model 1908. Here's a Comparison (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/compare_vwi_cs.jpg) of a Crescent St. and a Vanguard WI from almost that same era (by the way, your watch is more likely to be from 1929 than 1933 - all the more reason to have a DS enamel dial), just a year or three earlier. The Vanguard WI S/N 25,401,834 is listed as a model 1908 and also 1912WI. This form of listing was dropped by the time your watch is listed.

Perhaps somebody who knows more about Walthams can teach us both the finer points of the difference.

Kent

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 06-28-2001).]

[Larry Jones 98326]

Larry and Kent,

I thought I had a 1920's Waltham catalog but can't seem to find it. In my ca 1928 Paulson catolog, the Waltham price list shows Dials, Metal, Fancy also W.I......but no mention is made of Canadian style dials, and no dials are pictured. But painted W.I. dials seem to have been available. I'll try to get a better date on this catalog which has a 1928 postal fee table....


Larry

[Jerry Treiman]

My 1916 material catalog shows the 1908 indicator having a 36-hour indicator sector while the 1912 indicator has a 24 hour sector. In 1916 the dials were available in enamel or metal ("gilt" for 1908; "gilded or silvered" for 1912). Unfortunately, the more complete dial section is missing from my catalog.

[Steve Maddox]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the primary difference between the 1908 and 1912 models is that the 1912 models have pressed in jewels, while those in the 1908 models are screwed in.

As for the choice of 16s Waltham indicator dials, this topic was discussed here once before (quite some time ago). The silvered metal dials which appear to be painted, are actually enamel color filled, and they were about 50% more expensive when they were new than the (more common) porcelain type.

------------------
Steve Maddox
VP, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[This message has been edited by Steve Maddox (edited 06-29-2001).]

[Jerry Treiman]

I think that two different characteristics are being confused here. The 1908-model 16-size is a slight variant from the 1899-model, introducing the 1908 regulator (I think this may be Church's patent) and maybe a different tooth count in the winding mechanism (I don't have my material catalog with me to check this). The 1908-model 16-size does not necessarily include a winding indicator.
The 1908 versus 1912 winding indicators are a different matter - each had a separate group of indicator parts with little, if any, overlap. As I mentioned before, the 1908 indicator covered a 36-hour period within the same range of hand motion as was covered by 24-hours with the 1912 indicator. If I recall the details correctly, it is the 1908 indicator that was also used on Waltham's 18-size movements.

[This message has been edited by Jerry Treiman (edited 06-29-2001).]

[LARRY STEWART]

I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INTEREST.
GO TO horologist.com/gallery_2.htm

THIS PERSON DETAILS THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 1908 AND 1912 WIND INDICATORS.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF HE IS CORRECT.

THANKS AGAIN,

LARRY

[This message has been edited by LARRY STEWART (edited 06-29-2001).]

[terry hall]

Try this as a clickable link.......
waltham indicator (http://horologist.com/gallery_2.htm)

[LARRY STEWART]

THANK YOU TERRY

I KNEW IT COULD BE DONE BUT DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT YET.

LARRY

[Kent]

Thanks Jerry, what you've said is confirmed by my Model 1912 (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/1912_vang_wi.jpg), its indicator only spans 24 hours. That is a double-(some might say triple-)sunk enamel dial.

Steve as the Comparison (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/compare_vwi_cs.jpg) shows, both the 1908 and 1912 models have pressed-in jewel settings.

Kent

[Julian Smith]

Hello All,
Been lurking here trying to pick up a few facts.
I know this discussion is about the Vanguard and other 23 jewel watches so here's my 2 pennies thrown in.
The systems shown do not cover the Premier Maximus of the 17,057,000 range of SN's.
My question is ,Why not?
Does anyone have an answer?

J Smith

[rrwatch]

The Premier Maximus uses a different wind indicator mechanism. The indicator hand covers a sweep of only about half as many degrees as the other Waltham WIs. There is a "slip" mechanism that allows the watch to be wound further after the indicator hand had reached the "up" limit and a similar mechanism to allow the movement to run for some time after the indicator hand has reached the "down" limit. Its quite an elegant (although complex) mechanism that I've never seen used anywhere else.

------------------
Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688