Rare Le Phare

[missretta]

I'm writing about a family pocket watch that used to belong to my father's father, who was Russian. It's in very good condition, yellow gold, plays a musical movement and chimes. The inside of the watch has the following: Repetition Chronographe, Triple Quantieme Phasesdelume, Le Phare, No. 74403. Has anyone seen a watch like this before? I think a watch just like it was featured in Life Magazine (date unknown). I would appreciate any info, history, age, value etc. How can I post pictures of it? Thanks.

http://pages.prodigy.net/missretta/index.html
(I figured it out, thanks again)

missretta

[4thdimension]

missretta,
Welcome to this forum! I have owned one of these and it was a marvelous watch. I think the tranlations are repitition= repeater-it chimes the time, mine was to the quarter hour.
Chronographe is chronograph in English and means the watch can independantly time events
like a stop watch. Phasedelume (not lune?)of course means that the phases of the moon are tracked as well.

There are instructions on "how to post images" at the top of the page. It would be nice to see your watch.
-Cort

[BILL KAPP]

While this would be a highly desirable watch and emminently collectible, it would not necessarily be considered rare. The firm LePhare was organized by Barbezot Baillot. It was the first swiss company to semi automate production in a factory mode. Machine Dixi still survives today as a result of their manufacturing innovations. LePhare also survives and was combined with another company and as recently as 10 yearrs ago was known as LePhare Jean D'eve. I haven't kept up with their more recent history. There was an article written about this company in the Bulletin, authored by yours trully about 10 or 15 years ago. You can probably still buy a copy of the bulletin from the natl or borrow a copy from the library.

happy hunting,

[missretta]

Thank you for the warm welcome and information. Here is a site where I have posted some pictures:

http://pages.prodigy.net/missretta/index.html

Bill is there someplace where the No. 74403 would be cataloged? Where could I start looking? Have you ever heard of a watch that chimes and plays a tune, like a musicbox?

Regards,
missretta


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[CZHACK]

Very nice!!!

I will look up specifics on Le Phare this evening in Pritchard and post in this forum.

Is your watch a minute or quarter hour repeater? What is the musical tune? Please share a picture of the movement. Thanks.

[missretta]

I will notify you when I have posted a picture of the movement. The watch is in a bank safe deposit box and I will have to make time to do this. I noticed you were from the Czech Republic, can you read what is on the watch face (or know someone who can)? The watch is a quarter-hour repeater. I asked my brother about the tune, I'm looking into that also.

Thanks for your reply,
missretta

[CZHACK]

I will ask someone in my office to translate the Russian which I assume is day/month. The firm name was changed from Guye & Barbezat to Le Phare (the lighthouse) in 1888. However they also used that name during the earlier 1880s for complicated watches. This was a very good quality company which won many awards in the 1880s including one of two Grand Diplomas at the Amsterdam Exhibition in 1883 (the other was won by Patek, Philippe & Co). Le Phare also provided Bulova with movements for higher-priced watches.

I look forward to seeing the movement as I have Le Phare quarter repeater No. 372 but without moonphase/calendar. Do you remember how many gongs/hammers it has? Is it jeweled to the hammers? It would be a big deal if it is "musical".

[Nachtmotte]

Hello missretta,
to identify a musical movement of Le Phare, it´s much more easier, to lift up the dial - but that´s a problem I know. Please only by a professional watchmaker. He should do this carefully.
Melody movements of Le Phare have the characteristic technic on the dial side:

Kaliber 29, 30, 34, 40, 56, 80, 81, 147 and 148 are these "musicians" but
Repeater are to identify at the back:
Kaliber DVCC, E, EB, EV, EVB, EVC, EVCC, LB, LVB, LVC, LVCC, O, OB, OC, OV, OVC, YMC, ZMC, ZMCC, ZMT, 102, 108 VCC, 114 VCC, 126 VCC and the 151 VCC.

Please show us big pictures of the backside of the movement and only if it´s possible from under the dialside, too.
Hopefully I´m able to identify yours and would be glad to help you.
Sending you my best regards
Tony

[CZHACK]

Nachtmotte,

Do you have access to Le Phare information? Can you estimate the year for a Le Phare quarter repeater No. 372?

CZHACK

[Nachtmotte]

Hello CZHACK,
your number sounds like a very early piece. You own the books of Mss.Pritchard, don´t you? There you could estimate the approx.manufactuaring year.
At this time I´m building up my homepage about several watch companies and just now I´m working at the history and the movement types of ANGELUS and LE PHARE. I guess to take this in a few weeks online (see my homepage). Before I´ve written a kind of history-report about ANGELUS and in the next 1-2 weeks there will be also a movement list about their calibers. If you go to my homepage, you´ll find for every company a site with two pictures on it: the upper is for the history and the bottom for the caliber list.
Time by time I´ll take something online for everyone to watch...
Best regards
Tony

P.S.: Don´t you own also a Le Phare pocket watch? Maybe it´s possible to send me some pictures for identifying?

[CZHACK]

Hello Nachtmotte,

Yes, I own Le Phare quarter-hour repeater No. 372 which I assume was produced in 1888 (year of name change to Le Phare) or before given that Le Phare was used on complicated watches from the early/mid 1880s.

Hello Missretta,

As requested............the left hand box (CPE)is Cyrillic for SRE which is Wednesday and the right hand box translates as June.

[Nachtmotte]

Hello CZHACK,
your number 372: I guess there´re two 3-digit numbers near the balance wheel....the first 3-digit left and the second 3-digit right? Won´t you please check this out?
Due to the foundation date of 30.11.1888, I believe more yours was build in 1889. Otherwise you need the serial numbers of these Gold medal pocket watches from 1889 in the Paris exibition to compare...
Best regards
Tony

[BILL KAPP]

Hi there,

I have this chart of Le phare calibers. I believe yours is calibar 42 as seen on the last image. (faded numeral looks like a 12 but is actually 42)

http://members.tripod.com/chapter52/id18.htm

Happy hunting,

[BILL KAPP]

Just for fun,

Thought I would post some pics of my great grandfathers signed Barbezat-Baillot in its 18K hunter case with glass window protecting the movement. It is not nearly as complicated as the Lephare in this thread. It is just a split second chronograph flyback type. Dust cover, back and movement all have the serial number 19122 on it. See the pics at:

http://members.tripod.com/chapter52/id19.htm

I expect this predates the LePhare's but I suppose he could still be individually producing his own line simultaneously.

Happy hunting,

[missretta]

Bill,

Very good... it's difficult to see the picture in detail, but it looks like the one. The hands are different though. What is a calibar? What other information can I get with this number? Can I get the year and place of manufacture? I will post a picture of the movement when it gets done. This is a busy time of year for me, it may take a while. Does the moon dial show a.m./p.m. or moon phases? It's been a while since I have seen the watch as it is kept in a bank. Will the watch be marked 18K somewhere? You said your watch was signed. What does that mean, who signed it and where is the signature located? What does the No.74403 on the watch signify? Can you tell I know nothing about watches? Thank you for your help.

Still working on it,
Loretta

P.S. I liked the pictures of your watch but I would have enjoyed them more if they were closer and in color. No digital camera?

[BILL KAPP]

Loretta,

Signed, just means the makers name imprinted somewhere on the movement. Mine is marked 18K on the dust cover and back cover. I don't know about yours. 74403 is most likely the serial number. As to the moon phases, I don't knwow, that is outside my league. Caliber is like model or style.

Happy hunting,

[missretta]

Czhack,

Thank you for the day/date info. I didn't pay to much attention to the time or day in the picture as it was taken about 2 years ago, until you wrote me back! This is really quite a coincidence that I started this topic on June 6th, the same day on the watch. I worked through the night getting the pictures posted at 3:30a.m. and when I next looked at my wall clock it was Wednesday, 4:20a.m., (also on the watch). I turned off my computer (not realizing any of this coincidence) and went to bed. The next day I actually read the face of the watch and I was shocked! Furthermore I thought the moon's presence on the dial may indicate a.m. Freaky or coincidence?

Thanks again,
I'm having fun researching this watch.
Loretta

[missretta]

Nachtmotte,

I appreciate your response, when I get that picture of the movement I will post it. I doubt that I will be getting any pictures of behind the dial. Are you a watch maker? Who should I trust to clean this watch and if it needs to be shipped, how can that be done? I have contacted some auctioneers in N.Y. to get a rough estimate of it's worth in the event that I need to send it for cleaning. When and if I get it cleaned, I will request that pictures be taken from behind the dial.

I wonder what it cost when it was new?

Thank you for your help,
Loretta

[CZHACK]

Yes.....very interesting.....6-6-6!!!

We are not allowed to value watches in this forum but I can refer you to the "Complete Guide to Watches" by Shugart which is carried by the large book stores. Your watch (1/4 hour repeater with chrono, calendar and moonphase) is listed but not the musical function you mention.

[CZHACK]

Tony,

Thanks for the response. I will start a new thread with photos this afternoon and look forward to information from you and Bill on the movement.

Mike

[Nachtmotte]

Hello Loretta,
no I´m not a watchmaker. It´s only my hobby... Before this I watched some nice watch books but nearly every book showed the dial side. But the real beauty for me was the technical aspect to identify and date these watches. And slowly slowly I got the virus of watches....., how strong? See my homepage........

Cleaning this rare beauty should be done by a professional watchmaker. Someone you trust. Ask him for the estimated service costs. Anyway of this you could ask him also after his signed receipt of delivery with description of your pocket watch, the serial numbers of the case and the movement numbers. Maybe pictures of all sides of the item and the estimated value, too. So you have something in your hand for secure. With expensive watches from all kind it´s better to go with a second person like a good friend or your father to appear as witness. Always be carefull with such watches Loretta.
Best regards
Tony

[Nachtmotte]

Hello Bill,
may it´s possible to send me better pictures of your lists, may you? What kind of catalogue is this?
Thanks for kindly helping.
Best regards
Tony

[BILL KAPP]

Tony,

Unfortunately, the pics are almost as good as my 3 rd generation copies. This is a turn of the century AD from Le Phare. The original is with Machine Dixi, Le Locle, Switzerland.

regards,

[Nachtmotte]

Hello Bill,
that doesn´t matter if you´ve only this copy quality. I´m curious to compare my technical lists with yours and maybe to edit it.
Sending you my best regards
Tony

[CZHACK]

Tony,

See comments in the Strange One thread as there is reference to a LePhare watch you may find interesting.

Mike

[missretta]

Does Le Phare number all their watches in sequence over time? Example, since Czhack's watch is No. 372 c 1880's, can I assume that since my watch's number is 74403 that it was made much later or were they numbered according to style? Do records exist somewhere stating how many were produced during each year or each caliber? I have tried looking up records for the World's Fair Expositions in Amsterdam and Paris without much luck as far as awards or watches go.

Bill Kapp if you read this I would like to get more information from you on your article about the Le Phare Co. What is the "Bulletin" or "natl"?

Has anyone ever tried to contact the current company directly to see if they have any information archived or is language a barrier?

I noticed that Czhack's watch has the same type of pictures on the back cover as mine, is that their trademark or do they have a meaning to them?

I just don't understand why I can't find more information about a company that has been making such treasures of watches for so long. Is this just a case of poor record keeping or am I looking in the wrong places?

missretta

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[Nachtmotte]

Hello Loretta,
you´ve the typical questions of everyone, who owns a nice old watch.

Why have some companies nearly no records of their produced items? In fact of the Quarz movements some still haven´t got interests in their history or looses documents or want to make money telling the producing time. But I guess it´s a matter of organisation quality in every company to record their products. Some where lazy, some not. It depends.

After the Quarz era, the interest in mechanical watches grow up but to identify or date old rare watches - vintage watches, equal if easy or complicated, you´d become mostly problems: where are the records or documents of these? Some companies tried to document their history and for others, they don´t exist anymore since a long time. So where could a watch collector or a historical character find the information he needs? Old books, collections, watch collectors, auctionarys, jeweller, old repair catalogues, and so on. Mostly we as real lovers of these vintage watches collect all information and sustain their history again. My personally experiences (especially the SWATCH Group) in asking today a company after helping to date and identify old movements is: "..sorry, we haven´t got the information you´re searching for..." or "...we don´t know..". Either I was taken or they don´t want to help, cause I cost them time they don´t become money. But I don´t give up (See my project of my homepage). I discussed this in some watch collector forums and we still hold: we as vintage collectors are unattractive, cause we don´t buy their actually watches.
The most companies makes big advertision of the glamour of their history but don´t keep service for the vintage. But some like OMEGA as an example took part of their history and help via internet. Sadly the most don´t and this brings us as collectors in the game with homepages and forums also to bring out books.

The numbering is for every company a new mystique question. Some numbered from the beginning every different novement or watch. Some record this, some less. Some only with a kind of system: they differ between the movement and their case - if this company build both parts. Others produced only a short number like from nr.601-1200 pieces for each caliber like IWC Schaffhausen and produced after a different caliber with nr.1201-1800. Others numbered only the cases and the movements came from other companies.
The question after the serial number is hot as also a carefully case for making fakes. Some companies keep the serial numbers and characteristics for secret and it´s very hard to find out. Also if the company didn´t exist since long time anymore. It´s for your own to find out a way... like myself. For me it´s a kind of Sherlock Holmes and Dr.Watson: puzzle piece by puzzle piece a picture comes the more you find and that makes this so thrilling.
Loretta, it´s a lot worth to have forums or organisations like the NAWCC or others over the whole globe for discussing cases like yours and find informations from many experts here. You also meet new people from different countries: enjoy!
Sending you my best regards
Tony

[BILL KAPP]

Missretta,

The Natl refers to the NAtional Asso of Watch and Clock collectors. They produce 6 Bulletins a year for their members.

The article in question was published April, 1994, Bulletin 289.

By 1900 this company was producing a lot of watches. It wouldn't have taken them long to get to your serial number if they are sequential. The original Le Phare was split into two companies, Le Phare and Machine Dixi.

Machine Dixi has a lot of historical documents and some time ago commissioned a historical review of their company. Le Phare watch company is now known as Jean D'Eve and other than state that they have been in business since 1888 does not seem much interested in the past.

[Nachtmotte]

Hello Loretta,
seems to be the Caliber 111:

3 Discs under the dial for Month, Name of the Week and Moonphase. To correct them, there a 4 levers in 120 degrees setting (you see these 4 levers around the dial after opening the front cover).

Please accept my excuse, that I haven´t found out more information about your beautiful pocket watch. I´ll try to observe the auctions for russian items, cause before the russian revolution in 1917 cut the zarisitic family down, several high quality companies had good business in the russian market.
Sending you my best regards
Tony

[missretta]

Hello again, I'm back.

I have posted two more pictures of the Le Phare repeater watch. The one showing the movement may be a little disappointing as it isn't very close-up (let me know). This view is of the back of the watch, not behind the face. Can the caliber be determined from this picture?

The other view is of the watch in it's original box. On the inside cover of the box it looks like an address of perhaps where the watch was purchased. Maybe Poland? Can anyone translate this for me (please)? If this is an address, it would be interesting if the business is still in operation and has any old records (longshot, I know).

The pictures can be seen at:
http://pages.prodigy.net/missretta/index.html

Respectfully,
Loretta

[Gan]

Regarding the inscription on the original box for the discussed LePhare watch:
According to the Historical Museum of the City of Warsaw (Poland) and a Polish language publication by W. Glebocki of 1992, Jozef Golembiowski was born in Konin in 1854 and died in Warsaw on July 2, 1914. As a watchmaker he was apprenticed in Germany and Switzerland. Afterwards he settled in Warsaw and opened in 1880 a watchmaking/jewelry workshop at 1 Bielanska Street. In 1895 he become a master of the Warsaw Watchmakers Company and moved his business to the address of 111 Marszalkowska Street. After his death in 1914 his business was not continued as his sons had other professional interests.

It appears that the watch in question could be sold by Golembiowski on or after 1895.

[Nachtmotte]

Hello Loretta,
this is a LE PHARE Caliber LC edited on the front side with the module 111 for Date at position 12, Name of the week at position 9, Name of the month at position 3 and a moonphase at position 6.

Caliber LC (around 1888-19?)
Dm=45mm (20'''), H=5.6mm, 17 or 18 Jewels.
Chronograph for the center second (Function with a push button at position 2),
Repetition for hour and quarter hour
OR
hour, quarter hour and minute with two hammers (Function with a slide or push button at position 6 - it depends on a patent engraving),
rough gold quality surface of the plates,
silent governor in some variants,
serial numbers either in 6 digits or 2x3 digits near the balance cock,
some patent engravings around the corners or edges also on the dial side (mostly seen near the balance cock or under the two gong rings),
bimetallic screw balance,
breguet hairspring,
Savonnette

To this time I couldn´t found out, who was the origin manufacturer, either Mr.Charles Barbezat-Baillot (Co-founder of Le Phare), Louis Audemars (Brassus) or Le Coultre. It´s very difficult to look behind these companies but I´m
still working on it to find out...

Without this module 111 it would only have a subsecond at position 6 and I know this module till now only for the Caliber LC and JC. See my homepage:

http://de.geocities.com/vassiliadis2/Uhren/Le_Phare/Le_...ber/le_phare-lc.html (http://de.geocities.com/vassiliadis2/Uhren/Le_Phare/Le_Phare-Kaliber/le_phare-lc.html)

http://de.geocities.com/vassiliadis2/Uhren/Le_Phare/Le_...ber/le_phare-jc.html (http://de.geocities.com/vassiliadis2/Uhren/Le_Phare/Le_Phare-Kaliber/le_phare-jc.html)
Entrance:
http://de.geocities.com/vassiliadis2/Uhren/seite-2.html

Enjoy
Sending you my best regards
Tony

[missretta]

Wow, thank you so much for all the information.

Gan: I'm curious about how you could transcribe the inscription. After I received your post, I searched for Jozef Golembiowski on Google hoping to find a picture of him or something. I didn't find anything, where did you get this interesting information? I wonder what Grandpa was doing in Warsaw.

Tony: Good to hear from you again. At last I will believe that the watch isn't musical after all. I don't know where I got that childhood memory. So it is an LC Caliber with an added 111 Caliber module.

The watch does not strike automatically, you have to press a button to make it chime. Is this a correct function?

There is a number inside the watch next to a Swiss cross, probably the serial number. Can anything be derived from this number?

I noticed on your site, under Le Phare, that you have illustrations of medallions similar to those inscribed in this watch. Do they have any meaning or are they just a sort of trademark? (Loved your site)

Finally, what is "Savonnette"?

Now that my research is coming to an end I want everyone to know what a pleasure it was to use this forum. I obtained information here that I could not find elsewere on the web. The range and scope of knowledge and professionalism is incredible. I truely appreciate all your efforts and contributions. Thank you again.

Sincerely,
Loretta

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