My Stars!!!

[John Cote]

Oh no, here's John bitching about stars again.

But seriously, check out this eBay ad. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=528525941

I'm sure this person is not trying to be dishonest. "The Book" does indeed say that a 16s 21j adj3p Illinois watch rates 1 star. However, this grade 806 was one of a run of 2000 watches and part of a total production of over 37,000.

Who stands to benifit from these stars in "The Book". Certainly not collectors.

John Cote :frown:

[John Cote]

Oh no, here's John bitching about stars again.

But seriously, check out this eBay ad. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=528525941

I'm sure this person is not trying to be dishonest. "The Book" does indeed say that a 16s 21j adj3p Illinois watch rates 1 star. However, this grade 806 was one of a run of 2000 watches and part of a total production of over 37,000.

Who stands to benifit from these stars in "The Book". Certainly not collectors.

John Cote :frown:

[Steve Kosovich]

Ah!stars,did you see Jupiter and Saturn in the eastern sky? OH,sorry different catagory.
I think this is where "caveat emptor" comes in.I always wondered how the star system came about and how much research it took (or would take) to REALLY find out how many of these "star" watches were made to be exact.
The star system can be a boon to the seller,if the buyer believes he/she is getting a true "star" watch.Then again what difference does a "star" make?

[Jon Hanson]

John,

It is just another example of "a lack of knowledge" on the past of Cooksey, the recording secretary!

------------------
Jon Hanson, moderator, nawcc#8801

[Kent]

John:

Well ........
Somehow, uncommon got translated as rare.

Setting that aside, I'm not sure where Shugurt got his quantity number on the "Illinois"-marked 806, but Meggers & Ehrhardt say that most of them were private labeled watches (i.e., Santa Fe). So, its conceivable only 5% or so were marked "Illinois."

The real problem is that value (or perceived value) is not inversely proportional to quantity. There's a desirability factor to be considered.

People who pay hundreds of dollars for items about which they are ignorant, from dealers about whom they don't know, are at risk. This applies to sales at marts, flea markets, antique stores/shows, or on the internet. The family of one of my railroad oriented friends once wanted to get him a railroad watch for his birthday. They went to a jewelry shop in town that handled estate watches and asked for a railroad watch. The guy sold them a hunting-case, 12-size, cylinder watch, telling them it was a conductor's watch - remotely possible, but highly unlikely.

It all boils down to:

1. If you're going to spend real bucks collecting watches, do the research on the watches you're going to collect.

2. Buy from reputable dealers.

3. Be careful buying from dealers about whom you don't know very much (I don't consider the feedback on eBay to be worth very much - the people who post the feedback may be more ignorant of what they're buying than I am).

Kent

[John Cote]

Kent,

The book from which most collectors seem to get most of their knowledge is "The Book". I think Cooksey could and should make "The Book" better. If it were better, maybe he would sell more (Maybe not...Who knows).

Let's just play with this thread and then I will try to resist picking it up again. As far as I know (and someone is sure to find and exception) there were 6 grades of open face, 16s, 21j Illinois watches which have been seen, or were advertised to have been marked "Adjusted to 3 Positions". These were:

Grade 175 - Production 1,360
Grade 185 - Production 250
Grade 306 - Production 2,575
Grade 606 - Production 7,935
Grade 706 - Production 1,340
Grade 806 - Production 37,290

I guess I don't know exactly where Cooksey gets his information either, but lumping all these watches together, and giving them a star, aids in the deception that goes on in the marketplace.

I know "The Book" can never be the ultimate reference book (it can't list all of the grades). It would be so heavy it would have to have wheels. The rarity system it uses, however, could be made less deceiving to its users.

John Cote

[wge00]

What is a practical, available, alternative to "the book?" If this is not a good source, what is ?? I'm asking about a good resource that lists values, rarity, etc.

Thanks

[Greg Davis]

Well, to the seller's credit, they did not make a big deal about the star... no exaggerated claims about its rarity.

------------------
Regards,

- Greg

[This message has been edited by Greg Davis (edited 12-24-2000).]

[Kent]

wge00 Asked:
"What is a practical, available, alternative to "the book?" If this is not a good source, what is ?? I'm asking about a good resource that lists values, rarity, etc."

The answer is that Shugart's Complete Price Guide To Watches" is the single best book to get. Yes, it has errors, and yes, it is only a guide and a lot of the values shown are debatable.

The problem is that inexperienced watch collectors seem to think that they only need to spend $20 on a book that will enable understand how to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars wisely. This just is not the case. The following is an edited version of an e-mail that I sent to someone who asked almost the same question as a result of this thread:

Forget about getting pricing from books. Shugurt's "Complete Price Guide to Watches" is as close as you're going to get and, good as it is, its not as close as people would like it to be. To really know, you're going to have to see what watches are selling (sell price, not asking price) for at marts, antique shops/shows and also on eBay. Each market has its own price structure.

For research in buying, well that depends on just what you're collecting, but you ought to expect to get a number of books. First you should sit down and think over just what it is that you're going to collect. Try to establish boundries and goals. That will determine what books to seek out:

"American Pocket Watches Beginning to End...1830-1980, Identification and Price Guide" (also known as the Gold Book - because its cover was originally gold), Roy Ehrhardt & William Meggers, Jr., Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1987 (A new edition is still in print) is fairly comprehensive, but it is only just the beginning.


In general, "American Pocket Watches Serial Number Grade Book," 1993 Prices, Roy Ehrhardt & William Meggers, Jr., Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1993 (Still in print, see http://www.hoapress.com ) is good. In addition to descriptions, this has serial number/grade lists for Elgin, Hamilton, Illinois and Rockford. It also has date approximations for many companies as an alternative opinion to Shugart's book.

If you're interested in railroad standard watches, "Railroad Watches Identification and Price Guide," Roy Ehrhardt & William Meggers, Jr., Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1995 (Still in print) is useful. This lists a number of private label watches in addition to the standard watch grades form the watch companies.

There are books specific to individual companies, such as Waltham (which is where to get the Waltham serial number/grade list), which are useful.

If you're spending thousands of dollars on watches (not all on the same watch and easy to do with today's prices) there's no excuse not to spend a few hundred on learning what you're buying. I bought Meggers & Ehrhardt's Illinois book when it was $50. It paid for itself within six months by helping me avoid high-priced common watches. If you're buying for investment purposes, you're in a different world from me and different rules apply. Even if an "Illinois"-marked 806 is uncommon - and I don't know that it is - its not something I want to collect. But, if I was collecting Illinois 806's with different markings, Meggers & Ehrhardt's Illinois book is where I'd be getting my data from.

If you want to research on the cheap, sit down and define just exactly what you're collecting. Then, access the NAWCC Bulletin index (on-line) and check the Video-Tape lists in the Mart, and look up articles/tapes on your specialties. For very low cost you can borrow these items (both back issues of the Bulletin and video tapes) by mail. If you spend one third of the time researching watches that you spend looking for them, you'll be buying a lot more intelligently and probably at lower cost.

This pre-supposes that you're a member of NAWCC. The cost of membership is minuscule compared to what you'll waste on watches by being ignorant. The NAWCC Bulletin is full of articles on watches, but that's only part of what you get for your membership fee. You can also borrow books, by mail, from the NAWCC Library for nominal cost.

So, as mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, either work with one or more reputable dealers that you can trust, or put in the investment in time and effort to learn about what you're buying. Actually, you ought to do both.

Good luck and Merry Christmas,
Kent

[Jon Hanson]

John,

I believe the correct way to list watches in these price guides would be to list the number produced (if known, or an estimate of production) AND the number of examples accounted for (or a close estimate-a Sheldon type rarity rating might be considered). Obviously, this would be easier for earlier, rare watches rather than later mass produced RR watches. Hamiltons might be a good starting point, as production figures are mostly correct and we can guestimate numbers of most surviving grades fairlt accurately.

THEN, the reader (buyer) could judge in his own mind or have a more clear picture as to the relationship between production, surviving watches, and values (depending on condition, type of case, originality, etc., etc.) when deciding what to buy whatever watches he so chooses. Your 21 Jewel, 3 position Illinois watch example and breakdown
certainly creates a clear picture for the inexperienced buyer; and, THIS IS WHAT IS NEEDED!

As I told you over the phone yesterday, the Waltham section has so many errors that I just couldn't read it anymore-so I returned the book I borrowed.

Merry Christmas.

Jon

------------------
Jon Hanson, moderator, nawcc#8801

[John Cote]

wge00,

I agree with just about everything Kent said. I probably agree that the Shugart book, even with all its errors, is probably the best single book to buy (I just think it is a shame it is not better).

What Kent didn't really mention, and what Jon Hanson touched on, is that probably the single most important thing in evaluating watch is condition and originality. Even after you find out what a watch is, condition and originality are critical in determining a value. If you buy even a common RR Hamilton or Illinois with a wrong or missing part, wrong dial or wrong case, you may spend the rest of your life and a lot of money to try to make it right. As a wise friend of mine said, "They ain't makin this stuff any more".

Books can be a good guide for this but there is no substitute for experience. The great thing about experience is that it doesn't all have to be your own. Forinstance, although I think I know quite a bit about Illinois watches, I am always asking questions of other experienced collectors. I learn something every time I do this.

This is why I think being a member of the NAWCC is so critical, and why I have reservations about eBay becoming the ultimate market for pocket watches, over and above our marts. At a mart, if a dealer tells me a watch is original I can hold it in my hand and observe it. I can take it and show it to a friend and ask his opinion. I get burned even after seeing watches first hand. The difference between what a dealer might call a 9.5 out of 10 and what I might call an 8 is usually enought to make me not want to buy the watch.

I guess what I mean to say is be careful of what you read in books or on eBay. Books have prejudices and are only as good as the people who write them. There is no substitute for experience, your own, and that of your friends and associates.

John Cote http://www.interstatetime.com

[This message has been edited by John Cote (edited 12-25-2000).]

[Kent]

Jon and John have brought up good points and I agree with both of them. Actual production numbers (where known) and, on rarer watches, the number of known examples is superior information than a symbol representing a range of those numbers (and which is open to misinterpretation). And, of course, condition is of prime importance.

Kent

[BMW]

When I first got into collecting pocket watches I purchased the Shugart book. When I got my opportunity to buy my first watch at (believe it or not) a garage sale where a great many estate watches and clocks were being sold by the family of a deceased NAWCC member. There were others who got to the sale before I did and figured that their "pick of the litter", so to speak, would pretty much assure them the best values. It was kind of funny because everyone was joking about how much time I was spending looking at "The Book" before making my buying decision(s). I had decided that I would buy a bridge configuration with as many jewels as possible. There weren't very many bridge models to chose from except there was one that everyone else had past over. The problem was that it had kind of a funky sounding name that nobody seemed to be familiar with. I'd heard of Waltham, Elgin, and Hamilton but not this one. After much thought I ended up buying the watch with the unfamiliar name because I found it in "The Book" and figure that it was a good value for $100. Another kicker is that virtually every running watch in the sale was priced at just that, $100. My first pocket watch was this very nice Howard Series 10 in its original Keystone swingout case and with a Montgomery dial. If I wouldn't have had the Shugart book for a reference I probably would've passed on the watch with the unfamiliar name along with the other early birds.
This is not to say that this book, or any other, is perfect. If I was a "newbie" today, I would still opt for the Shugart book if I only had one to choose from. However, now that I've passed that status, I would prefer to have the "Gold Book" as it has better movement identification information IMHO. It is a great help.
BMW
Brian M. Watson

[Jon Hanson]

Brian,

Mind telling us who the deceased NAWCC member was?

Jon Hanson

------------------
Jon Hanson, moderator, nawcc#8801

[BMW]

Jon,
Without meaning to be offensive, I should say that I'd be more inclined to divulge the name of the deceased member if I knew the reason(s )for its importance.
FYI: The scenario took place about 5 years ago, possibly longer. The book that I was referencing was 1990's Tenth Edition. Cheers.
Brian W.

[Jon Hanson]

Well, BMW, I am originally from Calif. and thought I might shed some light on the "sale" about which you spoke. Just a curiosity question, as I know/knew most of the older collectors out there and elsewhere.

It really is no big deal-just something to which I responded as YOU BROUGHT IT UP.

If it a sensitive subject, then I'm sorry I asked.

Happy New Year.

Jon H.

------------------
Jon Hanson, moderator, nawcc#8801

[BMW]

Hi Jon,
It really wasn't a sensitive subject with me. It's just that sometimes I type faster than I think. In deference to the family, I'll email you with the gentleman's name. Cheers.
Brian W.

[darren]

First, I have found this series of threads interesting and a bit amusing. I think the
one thing that concerns me is the line of
reasoning in criticizing both "the book" and
on-line auctions. Frankly, we all have a tendency to think in terms of ourselves, but the point that I am trying to make is that there are a variety of reasons why we buy what we buy when we buy. I see no reason why someone would buy the initially referenced watch for an amount above "the book" mint value and be anything less than completely satisfied with the purchase (irrespective of the source), even upon finding out that the watch isn't that rare, or in "mint" condition. Even if the watch has any number of incorrect parts (dial, case, etc) the buyer may have no desire/inclination to remedy the situation. "The book" authors' actually make a good point early in the introduction (collecting on a budget section) that the collector should buy the best that s/he can afford and that novice collectors may be willing to buy slightly "inferior" quality representations of a given watch. Do I have a number of less than mint watches (that some would refer to as junk)? Yes. Am I happy with them? Yes. I'm not into watches as investments, or as a way to make money, it is simply as an interest. I buy what I want. Doesn't matter to me if it is a Lancaster New Era, or Trenton Model 2 or Ball/Hamilton, or a Newark. Have I bought without physically inspecting a watch? Yes. Would I do so whan purchasing what I consider an expensive watch (I'd very much consider NOT doing so, unless I felt comfortable with the seller, return terms and compelled to do so - searched long and hard elsewhere to no avail). FWIW, IMHO ebay serves an important purpose for the casual collector/noncollector that is NOT a NAWCC member and does not have access (nor the inclination to gain access to NAWCC marts). Same holds for "the book", it contains enough information as a start - again, as mentioned previously novice collectors intent on becoming serious collectors, need to invest in a NAWCC membership and become active in their local organizations. Just some random thoughts on the whole star/ebay thing. DB

[Dave Berghold]

Although this is not actually relate to the "star" scheme of the "books", it is however, related to the professionalism of the authors. I made an inquiry about the nature of their research in regards to the subject of "Swiss Fakes". Did Seth Thomas make faked 23j watches etc... Well, the letter I wrote was returned with notes made in the margins and chicken scratched between the lines. There was no substantiating their claims that some companies made "fake" RR grade watches etc... They provided no ref. material at all. I was not impressed and have since taken the avenue of thought that the market will bear what the bear will pay. If you are going to do your own research, go for it, and make sure you dig deeper than the "book" guys. There's a ton to learn about even the most mundane watch. Happy gear trains! db