Cazadero Crystals

[Freddy]

I know several members on this board, including myself, have been wondering what was up with Cazadero Railroad Crystal Co. Bill White of Cazadero custom makes outstanding new PW crystals utilizing optical grade glass. I, along with others, have sent in $$/bezels/cases long ago and have been waiting for weeks, if not months. In my case 3 1/2 months. Definitely long enough to give me that queasy ripoff feeling.
Well I am happy to report to all concerned that orders are being filled as I finally received my bezels and cases back, expertly fitted with super nice glass. Included was a note of apology from Bill to his customers about the long delays, stating he had been swamped with crystal orders in the prior months. The backlog is being cleared up and he plans to make operational changes to ensure more timely deliveries. So was it worth the 3 month wait? You bet it was. Better than any original glass I've seen. Cazadero came along with a superior product people wanted, the word got out, and the man is just having a hard time keeping up with as he put it "an extremely dramatic increase in business". So for those still waiting, just hold on. You will get your orders back and I'm sure you won't be disappointed. It took awhile, but it was worth the long wait.

9-14-02 I would now like to state that it is not worth the long waiting headache and I recommend that anyone considering dealing with Cazedero read the following posts.
- Caveat Emptor -

Fred Van Krieken


[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited 07-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited 09-14-2002).]

[Freddy]

I know several members on this board, including myself, have been wondering what was up with Cazadero Railroad Crystal Co. Bill White of Cazadero custom makes outstanding new PW crystals utilizing optical grade glass. I, along with others, have sent in $$/bezels/cases long ago and have been waiting for weeks, if not months. In my case 3 1/2 months. Definitely long enough to give me that queasy ripoff feeling.
Well I am happy to report to all concerned that orders are being filled as I finally received my bezels and cases back, expertly fitted with super nice glass. Included was a note of apology from Bill to his customers about the long delays, stating he had been swamped with crystal orders in the prior months. The backlog is being cleared up and he plans to make operational changes to ensure more timely deliveries. So was it worth the 3 month wait? You bet it was. Better than any original glass I've seen. Cazadero came along with a superior product people wanted, the word got out, and the man is just having a hard time keeping up with as he put it "an extremely dramatic increase in business". So for those still waiting, just hold on. You will get your orders back and I'm sure you won't be disappointed. It took awhile, but it was worth the long wait.

9-14-02 I would now like to state that it is not worth the long waiting headache and I recommend that anyone considering dealing with Cazedero read the following posts.
- Caveat Emptor -

Fred Van Krieken


[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited 07-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited 09-14-2002).]

[Lindell V. Riddle]

Freddy,

Thanks for the update. This guy is no "dreamer" and I anticipate delivery of a full selection of the most popular sizes any day now and I promise everyone a full report.

Lindell

[Holt]

Thank-you Freddy, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to let us know ! I've got a couple bezels out there, myself.

I figured "backlog" was Bill's only problem, but it's nice to know for sure!

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Tommy
NAWCC #156317

[This message has been edited by Holt (edited 06-26-2002).]

[Mike Miller]

Freddy,

Thanks for the update. I also have an order for the 18S assortment that is about 3 months old. His product is so good that I'm not supprised that he suffers from a backlog.



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Mike Miller

NAWCC Member #154831

[Freddy]

This is the third time I've dealt with Cazadero and I've always been very satisfied with Bill Whites work. The 3+ month wait was a bit disconcerting as he doesn't communicate to let you know what is going on. Hopefully he's working on getting delivery time down. Bottom line is he's running an honest business, the crystals look great, and eventually you will get your order back. I finally did and my watches look real nice with those new crystals.

Fred Van Krieken

[Steve Maddox]

I don't know Mr. White, and have never done any business with him, but it sounds like this is a case where he's built the proverbial "better mousetrap," and has been inundated with more "mice" than he ever could have imagined.

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Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[Larry S]

I'm very happy for Bill. I can remember that nearly two years ago he was undiscovered. His turnaround time was quick then. He has no equal, and probably no competition. The price of his success is a long wait for us. :frown: If you want new glass crystals, he's the best.

http://www.mwt.net/~check/larry1.gif

[Mike Miller]

Hey Guys, I need some reassurance... It's been 4 months since I sent in a prepaid order for the 18S assortment. I have repeatedly emailed Bill just to find out if my money order made it... no responses. Has anyone heard anything lately?



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Mike Miller

NAWCC Member #154831

[Holt]

Yeah, kinda, he cashed the checks I sent him (one just this week), but I haven't heard from him, he's got a couple of my bezels ( had 'em for a few months) I guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed! I trust him!

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Tommy
NAWCC #156317

[Greg Davis]

Labor of love or not, I'm afraid I would find it impossible to do business with someone who ignores his customers.

- Greg

[Bob Sharp]

I'm in the same boat as others who are waiting and running very low patience. My prepaid order for crystals is now 100 days old. Along with the order are the half dozen complete cases sent along for crystal fitting. That amounts to a pretty penny, not to mention that I could have put the cases to good use in the meantime.

I have called and/or e-mailed every two weeks or so, typically with no response. A month ago, when I happened to catch the proprietor on the phone, I was assurred that my order was about to be completed. I suppose I should have asked when it would actually be shipped.

In this and other threads, the waiting time seems to be measured in months. I have never heard anyone say that they received any kind of progress report, feedback, call back, or other response. If I ran my own small business that way, I wouldn't have one.

[Greg Davis]

Well, obviously he doesn't have a problem keeping the orders coming in. It's getting them processed that seems to be the problem. Growth pains. The demand must be greater than he ever anticipated.

[Ball992B]

I don't like it when my things spend that much time away from me.

I would rather take Lindell's approach and just buy a lot of varying sizes that are very close to what is needed rather than ship out complete cases or even bezels. Even though you risk buying a few unusable crystals.

I am in a similar situtation with 8 watches given to a local watchmaker last August. He has since moved from the area. He will not answer the phone or emails. A friend of mine has expressed concern with the same guy on a Rolex that he hasn't seen in over 8 months.

I have pretty much written them off. I am certain I will never see them again.

I do see his user name in the auctions on occasion. So I know he is still around somewhere.

I am just glad that what he has of mine are nothing real special. The best being a 21 jewel Ball wrist watch.

I am not at all implying that this is the case with the crystals as obviously they do eventually return. I just don't want to be in the position that you guys are in. I understand your concerns.

Some correspondence would surely ease the tension.

[Bob Sharp]

An earlier post noted:

"I would rather take Lindell's approach and just buy a lot of varying sizes that are very close to what is needed "

I'd be interested in hearing from Lindell -- or anyone else -- about their experience in ordering just the crystals from Cazadero. I'd also be surprised (and not a little disappointed) to learn that they received faster service.

Does anyone have recent experience that would indicate that crystals alone are delivered faster than those fitted to bezels?

[Holt]

I hate to ask this question,...has anyone recieved anything from Cazadero recently?

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Tommy
NAWCC #156317

[4thdimension]

Hoo boy,
I haven't dealt with Cazadero but I have
felt inspired by his entrepeneurship. Hearing the applause for the quality of his
product and then the growing conern about the ability to fill orders leaves me
wishing I could reccomend an employee
or apprentice. I passed Cazadero last week and had the urge to check in but
wasn't able.
Does anyone know if this guy knows
there are people talking about him like this on line? I was impessed to learn someone was conducting such a specialized biz . It has been a rough start
perhaps but I'm sure we agree encouragement is in order.
-Cort

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<[';')>

[MIKE NARDICK]

Cort,
Maybe you should check in with Cazadero and see if he could use a Shipper/Reciever and help all the guys here :biggrin:

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Mike Nardick
#144409
Chapter #37 Allegheny

[This message has been edited by MIKE NARDICK (edited 07-26-2002).]

[Freddy]

I hope everyone eventually gets their stuff back. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I waited 3 1/2 months. I do like what Cazadero puts out and was satisfied with what I got back. Regrettably, due to the unexpected long, long wait and nonexistent customer communication, I won't be doing anymore business with him. Not until those problems get solved. It's not worth it to me if I'm left hanging and wondering for weeks on end. I wasn't too happy about it and I'm sure the rest of you still waiting and waiting aren't either. Bummer. Good luck to all.

[4thdimension]

Mike and all,
Does anyone know 1) How crystals
are made currently? and 2) What is the
history of American crystal making?
Crystals I get came from Switzerland and France, England and Japan but I don't know of a previous U.S. crystal co.; anyone else?
As I stated before, I haven't had any
business yet with Cazadero. I have, however, suggested to the gal who oversees the crystal department at Frei&
Borel that she look into Cazadero to
replenish the sizes that they currently are
out of. The "19"s are in short supply as well as o size htg. xtals etc..
I don't know if we can make Cazadero wealthy but , think about it!!, we want this
guy to succeed right? Apparently the
demand is exceeding production. Basic
advice might be to 1) raise prices 2)grow.
As a small potatoes watch repairer I'm
getting familiar with the choices. I've
found balance by refusing a fair ammount
of business.
It would be no surprise to me if the owner wished there was another crystal co. to send excess biz to....
-Cort
.

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<[';')>

[This message has been edited by 4thdimension (edited 07-28-2002).]

[MikeP]

Not to criticize Cazaderos at all - I'm sure he does a superb job from all I have heard.
But for "standard" American pocket watch crystals I have had excellent results with Larose. Send them the bezel - they send back a fitted crystal in about 10 days.

[mikeh]

MikeP,

What does LaRose charge for this?

Regards,
Mike

[MikeP]

The last one I sent them (about 2 weeks ago) was $12.50 for the crystal + $4.50 for "trimming to fit."

Again, I can't say if they can do this for ANY pocket watch but they've had no trouble with any "standard" American pocket watch I've sent them.

[Mike Miller]

Well it's been another month or so and I still haven't heard anything about my Cazadero order that was placed and payed for in March. Has anyone heard anything about any order they have placed (give me some hope).

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Mike Miller

NAWCC Member #154831

[This message has been edited by rmiller3 (edited 09-05-2002).]

[Grant Perry]

Sorry,
I don't care how good the crystal's that Bill produces are, I won't bother again.
I tried calling and e-mailing a number of times witout a response. A simple "Thank you, but I cannot except anymore business at this time as I am too busy" e-mail would go a loooonnnggg way. Supply and demand is what it comes down to. Maybe if people stop ordering he will get the message....maybe not.

[Bob Sharp]

I also have a fair-size order in with Cazadero, not to mention the six pretty nice cases I sent along with my full payment. I guess I'm not at the head of the line, though. I've only been waiting since early April (of this year, at least). I actually spoke to Bill many weeks ago and was told that my order was coming right up. Losing patience, I called just over a week ago and asked him to either conclude the order or send back my six complete cases with an appropriate refund. As of today, there has been no response by mail, phone, e-mail or divination.

[ysub9]

I sent a bezel to Cazadero at the end of March and as of today have not heard one word. I have sent several e-mails, but get no response. I had 2 bezels done there before and the longest wait was about 3 months. This has gone on for over 5 months. You know his work is good enough for me to wait for IF he would just update me as to the status of my order. That's all I ask.

Rob

[DavidEFahrenholz]

I am not familiar with Cazadero's work as I service mainly clocks and have LaRose do my crystal fits. I agree that he should keep in contact with his clients even if to update on his progress. Customers seldom like to wait "in the dark". They may appreciate his craftsmenship but not his lack of information. They vote with thier pocket not thier heart. Perhaps someone could convey the urgency to him.

------------------
David E Fahrenholz
Fahrenholz Clock
NAWCC #0156368

[Lindell V. Riddle]

Hello Everyone,

I just dusted off my "Cazadero" file and re-read my enthusiastic letter of support which was enclosed with my Cashier's Check for $499.65 and mailed on May 31st of this year.

What saddens me is the fact that just a few days before in a phone conversation, Bill White of Cazadero RR Crystals informed me that he was catching up and anticipated getting to my order in the following two weeks. When that evolved into two months I sent an e-mail dated August 7th saying I had not lost faith in him and what he is trying to do and that we are all pulling for him. I said I look forward to doing a lot of business with him once he's past the growing pains.

That same day I sent a link to this thread with "I thought you might be interested in reading this web page", and received the following message:

__________________________________________________ __


From: William White <cazadero@ap.net>
Date: Wed Aug 07, 2002 04:09:54 AM US/Eastern
To: "Lindell V. Riddle" <southbend@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Cazadero Crystals

Dear Sir,

You are not forgotten...I'm just really behind in this pile of orders.
Please spread the word that I intend to fulfill all orders asap.

Thanks for your patience and please stand by.


Bill White

__________________________________________________ ___


Standing by, well I sat down quite a while ago, but I can honestly tell you I still believe in what Bill is trying to do and after I post this I will send him another link to this page.

Every now and then when a package arrives I hope it will be my stash of the most perfect pocket watch crystals ever made. So far no luck but as I said, for some reason I still think he will pull this off and we'll all be delighted. Bob, Rob and I have been waiting a very long time, and hopefully before long we will have good news to report. I'll go send that link, and I promise to share whatever response I receive with all of you.


________________________________________

Lindell V. Riddle
NAWCC Life Member# 253-150074
Member Chapters 10, 28, 37 and NAWCC-***

<southbend@adelphia.net>

Phone: (440) 461-0167


________________________________________

[Freddy]

I'm sorry to hear some of you are still waiting for your orders after several months. I think the ethical thing for Cazadero to do is,upon request, to refund your money and return any cases/bezels sent in. Given his track record of keeping customers incommunicado, good luck. I wonder if he realizes the poor reputation being accumulated from not fulfilling orders on anywhere near a timely manner. It makes for unhappy customers and no repeat business. At the very least he should post a notice on Cazadero's website that it may take several months to get an order filled. Or stop taking in new orders until the backlog is cleared. In any case, it's hard for this type of customer service to make up for those fine crystals. You gotta get 'em first! I finally got back some nice crystals but it wasn't worth the unexpected long waiting headache.

[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited 09-07-2002).]

[Bob Sharp]

As noted previously, I'm also among the waiting. Today, after failing once again to get a live body on the phone, I looked to see if the Better Business Bureau had a listing on the Cazadero company. It appears that there is no record of complaints and no BBB listing for the company under the phone number given for Cazadero.

I'd hate to be the first to lodge a complaint through the BBB, but there is little that is more frustrating than waiting with no end in sight, no response and no clue of any kind. From the number of others who are waiting, it's safe to assume that the proprietor is in posession of a good deal of money and quite a number of cases and parts. This has grown to be more than simply bad business practice.

What do others think? Would a complaint through the BBB have any beneficial effect?

[Freddy]

Do it. Filing numerous complaints from all involved to his local District Attorney and also the US Postal Inspectors wouldn't hurt either. If thats what it takes to get your $$ and cases/bezels back.

[Greg Davis]

As much as everyone likes to bad-mouth eBay, I have found it to be a veritable wellspring of parts for repairs, including good quality N.O.S. crystals liquidated from watchmakers estates. Recent auctions had as many as 250 PW crystals in a lot (ending at less than $50), covering a large range of sizes. And the auctions end cheap, so you get a nice assortment for less than a single crystal through Cazadero. I recently closed 2 auctions of 24 crystals apiece for $9.95. Each lot included thick beveled crystals and a bullseye or two.

Granted, the seller sometimes doesn't list all the sizes... but some do. Granted, sometimes you want a very particular kind of crystal, and cannot tell whether it is in the lot or not... but sometimes you CAN.

Seriously, folks, waiting 6 months and more for a single crystal and sweating bullets, as some of you obviously do... you gotta ask yourself why you put up with the hassle. Can any custom made crystal really be THAT far superior to a N.O.S. crystal from a watchmaker's estate?

I now have about 1000 PW crystals covering a large array of sizes. Sure, there are some popular sizes I lack (some because I already used them), and I'll grant that I have a lot of crystals smaller than I expect to ever find useful. But I also have all my bezels.

You folks exhibit extraordinary patience waiting for your bezels to be returned. I exhibit some smaller portion of patience waiting to find the right auction on eBay that has the crystal I need to complete a certain project.

Just something to think about.

[mikeh]

Although I have had little luck buying crytal lots on ebay, Greg makes a good point. Bill's work is exceptional, but I won't wait that long. He has always turned the order around for me in several days, not weeks. But that was two years ago before he was widely known.

For those of you who are sending in bezels, my experience has been that Bill's measurements seem to be more accurate than NOS crystals. I have seen many NOS crytals with the very same label vary .1mm or more. And that is in VTFs, the brand some consider to be the best. So, you might consider purchasing a micrometer, ordering the crytals, and hang on to your bezels.

Just a thought.

Regards,
Mike

[crsides]

I know all of you are most frustrated, but honestly, you sound like my boss. I think the worst thing you could do to speed up his production is to call him, email him, file law suits against him, complain to the BBB. I can see this as helping the poor guy work out from under the backlog.

Charlie

[Greg Davis]

So we're supposed to feel sorry for a business man that doesn't know how to keep his customers from getting irate? Sorry, but this is America, where impatience is a virtue that drives us all to higher and higher productivity. If Bill can't keep up, he ought to at least have the courtesy and courage to admit it to his customers.

- Greg

[Bob Sharp]

To Dave's point above:

As an unhappy camper, I've already phoned Bill and left a message to the effect that I'd like my money and watch cases back, either finished or not. To this I received the same reply as has become standard: None at all.

[Freddy]

I think most people will wait for a quality product if they have some idea ahead of time HOW LONG it will take. And that promised delivery dates are kept. And that any lengthy delays will be communicated to the customer. And that customer inquiries will be responded to. This is whats known as basic good business and customer service, something which Cazadero appears to be sorely lacking after reading through this thread. After reading how long some of you have been waiting, I feel fortunate to have gotten my order back in 3 - 4 months. Nice crystals but nobody needs this kind of hassle.

Fred

[Charles Medsker]

I haven't had any experience with this gentleman. May I suggest taking your watches/bezels to an NAWCC Regional in your area? There are usually a couple guys at Regionals with crystals. Attend your local NAWCC Chapter meetings, and make your wants known. There are many NAWCC members with stashes of watch parts, who would be willing to help with your needs, and usually at a very reasonable price. If you aren't members of the NAWCC, and you collect watches, consider joining, and start attending local Chapter meetings. Or, as someone else suggested, send the bezel to S. Larose, and get it back in a couple weeks with a NOS crystal.



[This message has been edited by Charles Medsker (edited 09-17-2002).]

[Greg Davis]

Charles... your suggestions are far too reasonable. Please reconsider and come up with something more radical.

Thanks,

- Greg

[Jon Hanson]

Join the nawcc and file an ethics complaint, providing this crystal installer is a member.

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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801

[Tom McIntyre]

I personally would never pay to have someone make a crystal for me. The existing supply will not run out in my lifetime. http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

However, I think I saw an ad for Cazadero in a recent NAWCC Mart. If that is true, he is subject to censure by the Ethics Committee if a complaint is substantiated. The complainant only needs to say they contacted him through the ad.

As to the NAWCC sanctioning people for the business they conduct outside the NAWCC, that might be a difficult one to get a handle on. If the intent and form of the business is related to collecting and/or horological research (plagiarism for example) we probably should be willing to address it. Of course our teeth are limited to the ulitimate punishment of revoking membership.

Maybe we should set up a certification program so there would be more to take away. :smile:

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Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Jon Hanson]

Thanks, Tom, I too saw his ad in the nawcc mart and you saved me the trouble of a timely response.

As we all know xwam is at it again ragging on Berger, unjustly!

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Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801

[Greg Crockett]

If I had an order outstanding, I would be tempted to contact the local court-clerk and see if there have been any criminal or civil suits filed against this company or against the owner/opperator. All court info is a matter of public record, sometimes available on-line or with a telephone call. If yes, see what kind of criminal or civil suits have been filed, when and by whom. The name of the district attorney, prosecutor or civil attorneys will also be included with the record. You can contact them for additional info, often they will talk to you.

Another option is for several of you to make a complaint to the local law enforcement agency in his area. If there are several of you who do this it might get the cops to send someone to check it out. The visit might get him in gear.

However, to give the man his due, he was a rather nice fellow back when I ordered some of his crystals, and he sent them to me fast. We might discover that he is not getting his work done because of a serious illness, a death in the family, divorce, etc. etc. etc. You don't want to end up feeling like a cad for kicking a man when he is down. However, each of you have the right to get your cases and cash back if for any reason he can't do the work right now.

Good luck!

[Watch Detective]

He signed with an X, the mark preferred by the functionally illiterate. That mark was attached to a note that was functionally incoherent. Like all crime scene detritus, the note was a clue. But there really was no mystery, just misinformation.

The Watch Detective

[Spike]

A link to the Cazadero Railroad Crystal Co. (http://users.ap.net/~cazadero/index.html) is listed on the NAWCC Member's Links (http://www.nawcc.org/headquarters/memlinks.htm) page.

Cazadero, CA is in Sonoma County. The Sonoma County District Attorney (http://www.sonoma-county.org/da/contact.htm)?s Consumer number is (707) 565-3161; the fax number is (707) 565-4020.

[This message has been edited by Annie (edited 09-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Annie (edited 09-17-2002).]

[Rick White]

Ah! Yet another mystery poster..... Are there any clues to his identity lurking about in his posts?? Hmmm..... X says he is a nawcc member well thats a start.
Come quick Watson!! The chase is upon us !!

I suspect his very own words will provide us the final clue to his identity......

Rick "Sherlock" White

[Jerry Freedman]

Just a reminder, the rules the Ethics Committee operates under were based on the guidelines submitted to Council by Steve Berger when he was chairman of the Committee.
As one who has been on Council I don't think I need to remind you that Council cannot be all things to all people. Decisions have to be made that will please some and piss off others. Being on Council and making rules for others is not a happy job. I think this subject belongs on the Forum.