Hamilton Factory RR Cases

[MikeB]

Hi -

All of the Hamilton 992Bs that I've had have been in Hamilton advertised RR cases, as shown on pages 228 - 229 of the Shugart book. Likewise, I have a late (1930's) 992 in one of these cases. I've seen a number of earlier 992s in non-Hamilton advertised cases.

When did Hamilton start using these factory advertised RR cases? Were early 992s sold as uncased movements?

I also was wondering about Hamilton 940s. Were these all sold as uncased movements, or were they cased at the factory?

Thanks!
Mike

[MikeB]

Hi -

All of the Hamilton 992Bs that I've had have been in Hamilton advertised RR cases, as shown on pages 228 - 229 of the Shugart book. Likewise, I have a late (1930's) 992 in one of these cases. I've seen a number of earlier 992s in non-Hamilton advertised cases.

When did Hamilton start using these factory advertised RR cases? Were early 992s sold as uncased movements?

I also was wondering about Hamilton 940s. Were these all sold as uncased movements, or were they cased at the factory?

Thanks!
Mike

[terry hall]

The factory cases started about 1910 +/-, but the 992 was sold only as a movement then, according to the factory ads.

The crossbar was the first factory case,

We have posted a number of the starting dates in past threads that a search will bring up.....

If you have access to the lending library or have old bulletins ,


Whole # 307 April 1997 page 229 This covers the early [1910] cases.

Whole #332 June 2001 page 357 This is part I,

Part II should be Whole #333, August 2001 This covers the tu tone 992 variations.

At one time there was someone on the emart that sold back issues very reasonable.. a few bux each.


I do not believe the grade 940 [or other 18s movements] were offered in a factory case {except maybe a display case when shipped to the jeweler}

Try those searches, much info is there....

[Kent]

Mike:

As can be seen on Page 5 (http://www.midwestcs.com/elgin/scans/sales_catalogs/1916_hamilton_time_book/m_pg05_16s_992_993.html) and Page 6 (http://www.midwestcs.com/elgin/scans/sales_catalogs/1916_hamilton_time_book/m_pg06_18s_940_941.html) of the 1916 Hamilton Time Book, the grades 992 and 940 were originally sold as movements only. In 1924 Hamilton offered the 992 in the First Hamilton Railroad Model Case (http://www.midwestcs.com/elgin/scans/non_elgin_ads/1924/m_11_hamilton_cross_bar.html). I don't believe that the 940 was ever offered as a cased watch. In fact, I don't think that Hamilton cased any of its 18-size watches, at least not in Hamilton signed cases.

Kent

[gshepp1]

I have a question - were all the cases Hamilton offered factory marked cases? I have a 992 in a cross bar case that is not engraved 'Hamilton'.

[Ball992B]

Shepp,
No, they were not all marked. Cases were made by Wadsworth, Keystone and Star

[terry hall]

The crossbar was never marked hamilton, it appeared in factory advertisments.

The Model 2, 8, and 10 were only marked hamilton on the crown.

I have not seen a 'manufacturer's' mark in the model 4, was it a Fahys or a Keystone?

[Ball992B]

Terry,
You got me on that one.... I do believe the model 4 rigid bow might be a Fahy's. It is only marked top to bottom:
Hamilton logo...10K Hamilton Railroad Model

Some only Railroad Model

[Ball992B]

Although I have not seen Hamiltons Rigid bow version marked.
I believe the Illinois Rigid bow and the Elgin are Fahys.. So...?

[Ball992B]

Terry,
I wondered if you caught this one....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=953892321

[backntyme]

Have a Hamilton Model 8 Case signed Hamilton on back cover(wgf), they do exist! However, agree majority signed on crown only. IMHO, the toughest looking Hamilton RR Case!

[Ball992B]

Backntyme, I agree. It is a stud case.

Is yours a B or an Elinvar ?

edited for... A WHITE GOLD FILLED http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif

edited again for... Please post a pic

[This message has been edited by Ball992B (edited 09-03-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ball992B (edited 09-03-2002).]

[Bob Sharp]

FWIW: Someone mentioned that the rigid bow cases used with other movements were Fahy's' Perhaps so, but there were others. I have a B.W. Raymond marked rigid bow case, made by Wadsworth.

It was apparently not a proprietary design of any single case maker.

[Kent]

I've just recently seen a 21-jewel Bunn Special in a rigid bow Fahys "R.R." case. I don't believe this to be a factory cased watch (the Bunn Special was too old).

Kent

[MikeB]

Hi -

Thanks for all the great info.

How about Illinois? When did the Bunn Specials start appearing in factory advertised RR cases?

Thanks -
Mike.

[terry hall]

mike this thread discusses the Bunn Special factory case introduction ..... movements only were also sold at this time. It was after the 60hour movement was in production when the watch became a FC item. The 23j version was not FC until 1928-29.
http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/003004.html

Don,

With the mention of the BWR in the rigid being marked Wadsworth... sure does make me scratch my head... Hamilton used a lot of Wadsworth cases...

And Yes, I did see that particular auction...time capsule...


Backntyme.... yes.... please post pic of the model 8 case... show bezel pattern along with inside markings... i will dig out mine again to double check markings....and one of those is a WGF...

[Jerry Freedman]

I have a Keystone/J. Boss 10K filled case that is identical to the one Shugart shows as the Mainliner. It does not have Hamilton on it anywhere. Would this be a proper case for a Hamilton 992B or a late 992?

[Ball992B]

Jerry,
I have always thought the "Mainliner itself was a complete watch. This case is marked Hamilton and it has some slight differences.

The Back edge of the case has an "ogee" type ledge around the perimeter.
The Mainliner dial is styled like the later 950 dial of melamine but is D/S porcelain and simply reads Hamilton.

Baton hands...

The watch IMHO should be an elinvar marked/equipped 950. The only thing that makes me not 100% certain is that the book has it listed under factory cases...?

[backntyme]

Ball992b, it is an appropriate 950 Elinvar. Maybe someone can comment on this, but I don't believe the Model 8 case was still made by the time the 950B's were introduced.

Kent, could you please comment on the introduction date of the Model 8 case?

Terry & Ball992b, will try and post images soon.

[Lindell V. Riddle]

Jerry,

What you have is a regular "J. Boss" case made by Keystone but NOT the same as what they made for Hamilton. Ball992B is right when he says the "Mainliner" is far more than just a case. It is a late 950-Elinvar movement with a certain style of dial, baton hands and a special Hamilton version of the J. Boss case which dates from at least 1924. "Shugart" lists the "Hamilton Mainliner" on page 229 in the lower-right. I have a red, white and blue "Hamilton 950 Elinvar Mainliner" tag with the movement and case numbers of such a combination in my collection. I believe Terry Hall has a Hamilton announcement confirming the 1940 introduction of the combination I refer to.

The Hamilton version of your case may also have been sold just before introduction of "The Mainliner" with a 950-Elinvar in it as well, because one recently surfaced. I would not even be surprised to find a 992-E could be had in the Hamilton-marked version. Whether or not it was offered any other way I do not know.

Your non-Hamilton J. Boss case would probably be appropriate to house any 992 starting with the time in the early 1920's when it was first available. We know it was patented in 1924, and was in all likelihood available earlier, but would then be marked as "Patent Pending" inside the back. Kent Singer often comes up with that kind of information! I would not expect your case to be right for any "B" Hamilton, but rather the 992 or even 950 from a certain time frame only when uncased movements were still available.

Your question is a good one to ask, however confusing because I for one expect details of authenticity to be increasingly important as these watches spiral ever-higher in value!

On the case model 8 a recent NAWCC Bulletin "Railroaders Corner" article pegged it as introduced in 1931, and the one I have is without the "Hamilton" markings.

I took a few pictures of what I described above and sent them along to both you and Terry Hall, perhaps one of you can post them as you deem appropriate.

Lindell

[terry hall]

Jerry,

Take a read here....about the Mainliner..
http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001295.html

This should address most of your questions..and the pics will show the details of the case... The links to picture I posted are still active....

The true mainliner case is marked Hamilton Railroad Model.

By factory ads, it is correct for only the 950E movements from about 1937 on... There are no supporting advertisments or factory descriptions to indicate that a 992E was cased in the Mainliner case, [but I have one, possibly switched???, but as I got it]

++++++++++++++

The Model 8 case...
I have 3 examples at my disposal, None are marked with info other than Wadsworth, the 'gold filled' mark, the serial number, and the patent date.

I have serial numbers
0645539 this is the White gold filled
0888313
H070986

The H prefix seems to have started in the late 30's. I have a pic somewhere on my hard drive of a boxed version that is the latest model 8 i have seen... will find and post....


++++++++

Now on a tangent.....

The model 3[checkerboard], 4, and 6 cases are not marked with a maker's stamp, Only Hamilton Railroad, a crest, and serial number.

The model 6 has an appearance similar to the 181 Bunn special case....

Could these all be fahys?

[terry hall]

Ok, didn't take but two floppies before I found it.....


Here is a model 8 case that from the Gelson/MY list dates to between 1935-37, just before the intro of the Mainliner...

Front view of boxed watch (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/992emod8.jpg)

Box Label (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/992emod8boxend.jpg)

I don't have pic of inside of back of this watch.....

But Lindell sent me a pic of his example.

Showing the typical case markings (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/lindellemod8.jpg)

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 09-04-2002).]

[terry hall]

hoooo boy.... may inbox has been a burnin up!

Lindell asked me to post a few pics....click the links...

Mainliner case is on the left (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/mainlineronleft.jpg)
This shows the extra 'step' on the mainliner case.

Comparison of Mainliner and 'regular' case marks (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/insidemarkcomparo.jpg)
It appears there may be two versions of the Mainliner case mark...
Another version (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/mainlinermarking.jpg)

Mainliner Tag front (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/lindelltagfrt.jpg)

Rear of Mainliner Tag (http://web.infoave.net/~ehall/lindelltagbak.jpg)

NOT MANY OF THOSE TAGS AROUND....IMHO..good stuff!!! :wink:



[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 09-04-2002).]

[Jerry Freedman]

Ok Terry, you have convinced me. My case is a RR model but NOT a Hamilton RR model. Now the question is, what should I put in the case?

[terry hall]

Can you tell what the case screw pattern is?

If it is Hamilton, throw an early 20's 992 or 950 in it....


If Illinois, A model 9 bunn special, A 23j bunn special motor barrel....

If Elgin..... and so on...

Case screw locations are published in some of the research material.... unless you have some movements lying around....

[Ball992B]

Here is one I grabbed the other day...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=954475930&rd=1

Note no mention of Elinvar or close up pic of same?. It should be according to the serial #

Dial and hands not of "Mainliner" variation.
This is a '37

White Gold #8 http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif maaaan....

[This message has been edited by Ball992B (edited 09-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ball992B (edited 09-04-2002).]

[terry hall]

Yep Don....

please let us know on the presence of the mark below the balance....


Note the difference in case marking between this one and the Image I posted of Lindell's ....

That is an HG dial.... [heavy gothic]

[Ball992B]

What if there is none http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/eek.gif

Can't go back on him, he never said it was a 950E. :smile:

[terry hall]

don

yeah you are right there... but... if it does not....

tear it down and check some numbers...check the balance to see if it is monometallic...and if possible check the hairspring.....

It is possible the indicated start of the 950E is later than the lists indicate... this watch is very close to the beginning..[you knew that...] It may be like the variants in Bunn Specials....

BTW, I enlarged the pic, I can't see a split in the balance....

Art,
The model 7 case appeared in may 1930 advertisements.

There was an article in The Bulletin a publication of the NAWCC. This publication alone is worth the membership price....

The article showed the 'first seen' ads from various vintage publications... It was not a thrown together thing... a lot of research went into the article...and it is still evolving...

[This message has been edited by terry hall (edited 09-04-2002).]