Edward Tompion & Thomas Barlow Verge Fusee Movements.

[harold]

Picked up a couple of nice verge fusee movements at the Chapter 33 meeting today. Britten's does not show these 2 names. Any help for dating. Too bad it is not Thomas Tompion.

http://static.flickr.com/117/295428513_e7e7ef2b13_b.jpg

[John Pavlik]

There was a T. Barlow working and listed in Baillie circa 1820 and the movement features appear from that time frame..

No listing in Baillie for the Edw. Tompion.. the movement appear to be earlier than the Barlow by 30 years or so..

[Frank Menez]

On the Thomas Barlow movement it looks like Worksop which is a Town 15Miles ESE of Sheffield

What is the name of the city or town on the Edward Tompion movement? It looks like London but I am not sure.

Can not find info on Edward Tompion in any of my books.

[Tom McIntyre]

I think you may need to check the Old Bailey records for Edw. Tompion. As I recall he was arrested as a pickpocket, but the entry said he was a sometimes watchmaker and perhaps a newphew of the great one. It will take me some digging to find the reference since it is currently only stored in the fuzzy gray stuff in my head.

[harold]

Yes I think it is a L for London but looking at it it could also looks like Sondon. Is there such a place as Sondon? Thank's for the information so far.

[Frank Menez]

Google--

Town of Sondon Bedfordshire England

[Jerry Matthews]

The place is Spondon, a small town on the outskirts of Derby. I am also unable to find any mention of Edward Tompion in any of my reference sources.

The Old Bailey records throw up 3 Thomas Tompions, 2 James and 2 Anns. No Edward.

Jerry

[Frank Menez]

Found the following watch for sale on the Internet-

Silver pair-cased Verge signed Edwd. Tompion London S/N 14232 Case HM Birmingham C1818 case maker S.P.

[harold]

Frank. I can't find the page on Edward. Could highlight the page for me. Thank you.

[Frank Menez]

Go to Google---

Type in- Edward Tompion watch for sale
AS300604Lot 601-630
See Item 605

[Frank Menez]

www.miles-pocketwatches.com (http://www.miles-pocketwatches.com)

C1814 silver HM pair cased verge fusee by London maker Edward Tompion


The Watch Collection of Stanley H. Burton -Warts and All- by Stanley H. Burton Page 192

Edwd Tompion London HM Birmingham 1815 Verge s/n 11995

[harold]

Thank you Frank.

[Frank Menez]

TM

Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World by Baillie--

Tompion
Thomas, Junior, nephew, London. a.1694
CC.1702. Imprisoned for theft in 1720.
Heir to his uncle and prob. retired in 1713.





FM

[Jerry Matthews]

The town inscribed on the movment is very clearly Spondon. I suspect that whoever prepared the auction catalogue also misread London for Spondon. Spondon was an important Derbyshire silk manufacturing town in the 19th century, and it is not unlikely that it would have had at least one local watchmaker.

Jerry

[Frank Menez]

I agree that the name of the town is Spondon
If you look closely you can see the P after the S. There is no substitute for examining a watch in your hands.

[harold]

Thank you friends for the information. When I saw the name of the maker I just had to own this movement. Frank, is there a publication where I can find the details of his arest etc. I searched the court records but could not find the story. Also, is there a place of the uncle's will to read the details of his legacy to the heir?

[Jerry Matthews]

Harold, the information in Baillie is not strictly accurate. You can see the proceedings of the trial if you go to

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/search/

Click on Search the Proceedings, then Name Search and type in Tompion Thomas

You will see there was a trial in 1710 where Thomas was implicated in the theft of a silver watch, but acquitted.

Then you will see the 1720 trial where Thomas and his wife Ann were accused of pick pocketing. (In this trial, he was identified as a watchmaker.) Thomas was acquitted, but his wife found guilty and sentenced to be hanged.

But bear in mind that these records refer to Thomas Tompion, of London, not Edw Tompion of Spondon, Derbyshire. Tompion is not an uncommon name, so they may or may not have been related.

The engraving on the balance cock of your Tompion is quite unusual. I have never seen one like it. It is much more usual to see a grotesque mask, like the one on the Barlow movement.

Regards,
Jerry

[harold]

Just after I wrote this, I was able to download Thomas Tompion's Will from the National Archives. Intereting web site and cost only 3.50 English Pounds. I still would like to find Edward Tompion's arrest details if possible.

[Jerry Matthews]

The Old Bailey site is free :smile:

[harold]

I am confused now. Was Edward Tompion the nephew of Thomas Tompion or not? I got the details of the trials printed off. I am now trying to find out if they were blood related. I will try to photograph the movement with a digital camera and post the picture on the site here.

[Oliver Mundy]

Baillie mentions a Richard Tompion of Liverpool, active in the late 18th century. This movement must be of much the same period (1790-1810, I would say). (Clues to the date include the relatively narrow cock-foot, the separate barrel-bridge [probably a dummy, the backplate being solid beneath it], and the tight and fussy piercing of the cock-table.) Certainly there can be no connection with the nephew of the great Thomas.

Oliver Mundy.

[Frank Menez]

There is no mention of an Edward Tompion in any horological books I have seen.

There is some info in the following books about Thomas Tompion Juniors criminal record.

Thomas Tompion his life and Work by R.W. Stmonds

Thomas Tompion at the Dial and Three Crowns by Jeremy Evans

PS We need to hear from the horological experts in London England on this matter.

[Doc Mark]

Morning, Lads,

If I may interject a question: Is there any thought that this movement might be Swiss, instead of English? I have always thought that Roman Numerals on the regulator were used by the Swiss and not the English. Am I wrong about that? Also, the engraving, has more of a Swiss look to it, than that done in the English manner. In addition, the Swiss were famous for taking an English, or English-sounding name, and engraving it on their movements. Edward Tompion does not seem to be found in any of the regular tomes, and could be just such a name. Add the "fussy" (as Oliver put it :smile:) balance cock piercings, the odd-styled cock-table, and I immediately thought that this movement was Swiss, rather than English. Any thoughts on this? Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Frank Menez]

See NAWCC Bullentin Vol 37/5 Number 298 Page 655

8 Silver watches, capped

Edwd Tompion London S/N 14154-15316

[Frank Menez]

Correction to previous post-

Edwd Tompion

22 Silver watches s/n 9724-15850

3 Siver watches,plain s/n 9863-15167

1 Silver watch Plain case #72 no S/N

8 Silver watches ,capped s/n 14154-15318

[pwrudy]

Gentlemen,
may I just add that I am personally convinced of the signature on the Tompion timepiece denonting LONDON and nothing else.
It is written in fracture script which can be called on the rarer side for watch inscriptions.The capital and first letter L is elaborately executed. And must be seen (and read) as a whole, including those bits which may seem like ornaments around an (antiqua) S.
Please confer http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/w4928b.jpg as an example of a 1790s London watch by Benjamin Webb sporting different sorts of script types, including the famed SPONDON/SONDON/LONDON inscription. I just may add that the engraving on the Tompion piece is of a more mediocre quality hence the confusion.
I would also date this watch to 1790 but I am afraid I cannot shed any light to its exact provenance.

[Jerry Matthews]

I have just received a copy of the new Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the Worldby Loomes, which integrates and updates the old Vol 1 by Baillie and Vol 2. (Subtitled Complete 21st Century Edition, published 2006).

And yes, there is an Edward Tompion listed, London, 1812-15. So I have to admit my previous posts were incorrect in Herr Rudy is right.

Jerry

PS, I highly recommend this new edition. It is available from Amazon in both the US and UK.